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#26 22-12-08 09:38:59

adi
Verified Member
From: shropshire
Registered: 28-02-04
Posts: 1,231
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

The highway code sets out the basic rules which, if followed by everyone help to make our roads a safer place. I haven't found anywhere in the highway code or the essential skill that says it's OK to straightline a r-bout if traffic is light. Do you teach your pupils to do this?

You are right in saying that if we were all to drive the same as the highway code dictates then the roads would be a safer place. But you can still drive safely if not safer by embracing advanced driving skills.

Advanced driving is just as it's titled, advanced driving.

If there were no 'levels' of driving as such that would mean a learner who has just passed there test would be an advanced driver as they have just demonstrated safe driving and complied with the highway code?

You won't find advanced skills in the highway code because it holds the foundations to safe driving to what you could describe as at a 'basic' level. Some drivers find it hard to even understand the rules as set out in the highway code, but as most advanced drivers are aware there are higher levels of driving where you can 'demonstrate' techniques that show you have the ability and understanding to use them as and when appropriate, having full awareness of your surroundings and the ability to foresee what may happen before it can happen and prepare for it. That would be 'advanced' driving would it not?
Certain techniques have been toned down in literature for fear of drivers reading and then doing when they don't posses the relevant skills. No sort of driver training can be read from a book alone but should be complimented with physical practical training and assessment to check that correct learning is taking place.
I'm not knocking your opinion Makem but why not have a stab at doing the RoSPA test? It may be a real eye opener but it would help you see that you can do more then what you see in highway code diagrams quite safely.

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22-12-08 09:38:59

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Re: Position for Corners.



#27 22-12-08 09:43:55

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: Position for Corners.

OK Nigel, you don't seem happy with me saying that basically there is no difference between a rule & a law. What is you explanation? Do you believe that only laws are to be obeyed & that rules can be broken (especially when should or must are not used)?

You teach straightening a RBT to pupils. Do you tell them to do so in their driving test if the correct circumstances arise? Guidelines, rules & laws are there to make driving safer so should be followed/obeyed.


What reason do you give when you teach them to go against guidelines (when you teach them to straighten RBTs)? Do you teach them to go against other guidelines in the HC (I am calling them guidelines as you reply suggests the absence of must, should ,do & do not lessens their importance)?

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#28 22-12-08 10:46:59

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: Position for Corners.

ADI

Some who have just passed their test are far better than some who have been driving for a great many years & vice versa.

The pass plus course goes further by introducing elements that pupils may not have been taught in preparation of their DT. Why not make this a requirement? At the moment it is only an incentive to reduce insurance costs.

A DT based around the ADI part 2 test standard could then be introduced for ALL drivers & those who don't pass within 3 attempts go back to being a learner.

If the RoSPA test means that you become a safer driver then why not make it compulsory? It could be voluntary for drivers but compulsory for instructors?

A timescale could be set

Pass Plus within 6 months after passing DT.

Part 2 level test between 1 & 3 years after passing DT

RoSPA between 3 & 5 years after passing DT (if compulsory).

How you go about enforcing this is another matter, it's a struggle to ensure that all drivers without L plates have passed a test or are not banned.

I have not attempted RoSPA, never really thought about it as it was never compulsory. I agree it would be an eye opener & probably improve my skills but I use some of the techniques they teach (and, no doubt, some they wouldn't teach).

Yes I knew that there are a number of 'rules' that can be bent or broken in the right circumstances (and I have done so in the passed) but if I am to teach to the 'book' then should I not also drive to the 'book' ('do as I say, not as I do' springs to mind)?

I have said before, the DT is just sets the foundations of driving, if they are solid then the skill should develop safely. You never stop learning & those who think they know everything DON'T

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#29 22-12-08 12:22:38

adi
Verified Member
From: shropshire
Registered: 28-02-04
Posts: 1,231
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

Yes I knew that there are a number of 'rules' that can be bent or broken in the right circumstances (and I have done so in the passed) but if I am to teach to the 'book' then should I not also drive to the 'book' ('do as I say, not as I do' springs to mind)?

Yes. Teach by the book, but that doesn't stop you yourself driving at an even higher level.

Going back to the original thread of straightlining a roundabout, by all means when teaching, keep rigidly to keeping in lane as in the highway code if you like, advisable.
When driving yourself, by all means apply higher skills, ie drive in an advanced way and enjoy it!
There is nothing wrong with straightlining a roundabout when it's safe.
As for Rospa, it's just a different style to DSA, but helps broaden your view of what is acceptable with driving.
As i have said before if you take the Cardington you can apply the above and it's not a problem, if it was they wouldn't accept it on the test.

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#30 22-12-08 15:35:07

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Position for Corners.

There is lots of snippets in the HC that people dont follow, i.e you should avoid u turning on a mini R/B etc, i bet everyone on this forum has done it! I for one have :evil: that doesn't make be a danger on the road, you have to use a bit of common sense and see beyond that of the DSA style and encompass other techniques that when applied safely and correctly offer an efficient smooth drive. The number one thing that roadcraft advocates is safety and this must not be compromised for anything else, if there is any reasonable doubt then it wouldn't or shouldn't be applied. The more tools you have as an instructor the better so you are able to pass on a balanced style of instruction rather than a dogmatic "This s the only way to do it" approach when clearly other methods can be applied that work better.

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#31 22-12-08 16:55:45

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

OK Nigel, you don't seem happy with me saying that basically there is no difference between a rule & a law. What is you explanation? Do you believe that only laws are to be obeyed & that rules can be broken (especially when should or must are not used)?

I have no problem with you believing there is no difference between a rule and a law, I just don't agree with you.  You confused me when you said there was no difference and then went on to tell what the main difference is! :?

I see 3 main levels of guidelines in the Highway Code.  The rules that mention MUST tend to refer to laws and you are liable to prosecution if you don't follow these whether it caused anyone else a problem or not.  Then there are some rules that mention SHOULD, these aren't quite so sacrosanct.  These you are only likely to be prosecuted if you cause an accident by breaking them.  Then there are some that don't mention either word.  I see those as even less important.  I believe if you are involved in an accident and you broke one of these rules you could still be prosecuted for driving without due care & attention.

All the rules in the Highway Code are good and you should be very careful before making a choice to not follow them.  Also you must be prepared to accept the consequences of not following them.

How do you view the advisory speed limits you see on some bends?  Do you follow those or note the sign and drive at a speed you deem to be safe, which may be higher than that advised?

You teach straightening a RBT to pupils. Do you tell them to do so in their driving test if the correct circumstances arise? Guidelines, rules & laws are there to make driving safer so should be followed/obeyed.

No I don't advise pupils to straighten a roundabout on the standard DSA test.  The DSA syllabus prefers pupils to follow their lane so that is what I would advise any pupil to do.

What reason do you give when you teach them to go against guidelines (when you teach them to straighten RBTs)? Do you teach them to go against other guidelines in the HC (I am calling them guidelines as you reply suggests the absence of must, should ,do & do not lessens their importance)?

I don't actually encourage them to straighten the roundabouts, but if they do straighten a roundabout I will encourage them to discuss the pros and cons and how essential observation is.  At the end of the day, how they approach and handle roundabouts is up to them.

ADI

Some who have just passed their test are far better than some who have been driving for a great many years & vice versa.

Absolutely.

The pass plus course goes further by introducing elements that pupils may not have been taught in preparation of their DT. Why not make this a requirement? At the moment it is only an incentive to reduce insurance costs.

That is often the only reason a pupil will do it, many parents are encouraged by the possibily of improving teh pupils driving though.  We could make it compulsory, but that would discourage other options, like RoSPA or the BTEC released by A2OM.  Perhaps a further test should be enforced within 1 year of passing?

A DT based around the ADI part 2 test standard could then be introduced for ALL drivers & those who don't pass within 3 attempts go back to being a learner.

If the RoSPA test means that you become a safer driver then why not make it compulsory? It could be voluntary for drivers but compulsory for instructors?

The RoSPA test is based on a slightly different syllabus.  I see no reason why ADI's should be forced to take it.  All ADI's have taken an advanced test (the part 2).  If you want them to be forced to take a further test then perhaps Cardington or the DIA Special test would be more appropriate?

....
Yes I knew that there are a number of 'rules' that can be bent or broken in the right circumstances (and I have done so in the passed) but if I am to teach to the 'book' then should I not also drive to the 'book' ('do as I say, not as I do' springs to mind)?

I agree with the idea that we should practise what we preach and I do that.  It's just that I teach learners & fleet.

I have said before, the DT is just sets the foundations of driving, if they are solid then the skill should develop safely. You never stop learning & those who think they know everything DON'T

Totally agree with you on this.

My apologies, that went on a bit longer than I expected

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#32 22-12-08 18:25:20

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: Position for Corners.

I have no problem with you believing there is no difference between a rule and a law, I just don't agree with you.

OK then give me your explanation of the difference between a rule & a law, This is after all a discussion forum where people can learn new ideas & adjust their opinion if the other person puts forward a convincing argument. I have changed my method of exiting via a slip road after someone put forward a good argument against it, I tried his method & it made more sense, perhaps you can convince me on this topic.

Perhaps I mis-worded the reply. It is the consequences of not following them where the difference is, but both should be followed.

As yet I have not seen any strong argument put forward as to why drivers (other than emergency services drivers, where time is of the essence) should find it necessary to straighten RBTs.

How do you view the advisory speed limits you see on some bends?  Do you follow those or note the sign and drive at a speed you deem to be safe, which may be higher than that advised?

I can only think of 2 of these, one I observe (not because it's there but because a higher speed would be unsafe on that bend). The other is positioned on a long sweeping bend on a DC subject to high crosswinds & it is generally accepted that it is for highsiders (even under high crosswinds it is normally safe to travel at 70, if 100mph was legal then, during the quiet period [if there is one on this particular road], it would be safe).

I have said for years now that a second test should be made compulsory (as should carrying licence & possibly insurance cover card) and not knowing the standards for RoSPA, Cardington or the DIA Special test I can't comment on which would be best.

If the invisible man was a covert senior driving instructor (in the car without the drivers knowledge) what percentage would fail this 'on the spot' test within 5-10 mins? I'm not a nervous driver but I was shaking like a leaf for my part 2 (I was even nervous at an interview for a job I didn't want). How many good safe drivers would fail purely on 'test day nerves'?

By fleet do you mean HGV/LGV (or whatever they call them these days)? As a C+E (102 restriction) licence holder I know the 'rules' often need to be bent or broken because of the physical size of the vehicle driven.

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#33 22-12-08 18:35:57

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Position for Corners.

Fleet work can be anything from company cars upto Artics

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#34 22-12-08 18:38:06

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: Position for Corners.

Fleet work can be anything from company cars upto Artics

Thanks, wasn't sure if the term did include company drivers.

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#35 22-12-08 19:52:27

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

....OK then give me your explanation of the difference between a rule & a law,

See my last post.

....As yet I have not seen any strong argument put forward as to why drivers (other than emergency services drivers, where time is of the essence) should find it necessary to straighten RBTs.

I do it because.....

and finally
 

How do you view the advisory speed limits you see on some bends?  Do you follow those or note the sign and drive at a speed you deem to be safe, which may be higher than that advised?

I can only think of 2 of these, one I observe (not because it's there but because a higher speed would be unsafe on that bend). The other is positioned on a long sweeping bend on a DC subject to high crosswinds & it is generally accepted that it is for highsiders (even under high crosswinds it is normally safe to travel at 70, if 100mph was legal then, during the quiet period [if there is one on this particular road], it would be safe).

Since you choose when to follow that rule and when not to why is it so wrong to not follow the lane rule on roundabouts when safe?

I have said for years now that a second test should be made compulsory (as should carrying licence & possibly insurance cover card) and not knowing the standards for RoSPA, Cardington or the DIA Special test I can't comment on which would be best.

If the invisible man was a covert senior driving instructor (in the car without the drivers knowledge) what percentage would fail this 'on the spot' test within 5-10 mins? I'm not a nervous driver but I was shaking like a leaf for my part 2 (I was even nervous at an interview for a job I didn't want). How many good safe drivers would fail purely on 'test day nerves'?

If a compulsory second test were to be brought in then the driver should be able to choose any of the recognised advanced tests.  I get nervous whenever I am being tested.  I was on a course last Monday & Tuesday to obtain approval to do fleet training for the AA.  I hated every bit of the testing (theory, driving & coaching).

I don't think there is much chance of a second test being made compulsory.  At the moment more and more companies are having their business drivers assessed & coached in some way or another because of Health & Safety rules, the corporate manslaughter law and also the prospect of lower insurance costs.

By fleet do you mean HGV/LGV (or whatever they call them these days)? As a C+E (102 restriction) licence holder I know the 'rules' often need to be bent or broken because of the physical size of the vehicle driven.

Generally Fleet covers any 'driving for business' regardless of licence category.


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#36 22-12-08 21:33:27

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: Position for Corners.

Making it a law means it is enforceable. Leaving as a rule means that to enforce it, it has to be under one of the 'umbrella' laws (Driving without due care & attention, driving without due consideration to other road users, careless driving or dangerous driving). To enforce it the wording has to be clear as many a lawyer has become rich challenging 'legal loopholes'.

Eco-safe. Yes you will save on fuel but should we be breaking the rules to do that?

Stability.  If the RBT is negotiated at it's design speed the stability is not a problem

Generating discussions. It certainly does that   big_smile

Advisory speeds. I thought you might say that but I can't find anywhere in the HC where it mentions them so not observing them isn't breaking the rules.  smile

Thirty years ago I made a rule that no one could smoke in my van (company vehicle & that rule WAS sacrosanct. Even the company director put his unlit cigar away when he realised that I was serious when I said I would put HIM out if he lit up).

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#37 12-09-09 12:38:51

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

I have to agree with Paul when he says leave it to the emergency services.
The Position of the vehicle prior to and into the bend must be carefully planned, any advantages gained by extending the view and/or straightening out the line into the bend should never compromise safety. The response driver is always looking to make safe progress (often  above the national or posted speed limit) and therefore any advantage that can be gained from extending their view or taking a straighter line will be used.
There is no real reason for or advantage gained by advanced drivers under normal circumstances to extend their position on nearside bends, and there could be a high price to pay if you get it wrong. 


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#38 13-11-09 00:55:53

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi,

Found some of the comments in this post quite interesting and surprised at the attitude shown by one or two regarding defending their position when doing something which in many areas would be frowned upon. Not only that but warning posters of how they have come across when in reality there is nothing that wrong in what they have said or suggested. I know I haven't posted much here but think I am fairly tollerant of others view point and accept that due to regional and trainer variations there are different standards and not necessarily better standards especially if advanced driving is being used as an excuse to interpret rules or laws to suit someone's driving!

For me, it highlights again the many differences in trainers and standards that are being passed down in advanced driving circles and does no real good for the perceived image of us as trainers and let's remember there is no real difference in what you are teaching/coaching your learners, Pt2s, Fleet or Advanced drivers. They are being or should be taught the same system and it is merely the ability of student and instructor that will limit the progress made. (and time spent in some cases)

Based on my experiences in Scotland here are my thoughts for what they are worth as a new poster:
Positioning for bends for our normal driving (ie not emergency services) and outwith built up areas, should generally be central and not nearside or offside or opposing carriageway when there is following, preceeding or opposing traffic.

The initial poster made reference to right of centre line for left hand bend and barring normal driving (overtaking, turning right etc) this would not be condoned and would definately be frowned upon and is 'old school' advanced driving and by that I mean numerous years out of date.

Straight-lining roundabouts would definately be frowned upon when the roundabout is either lined or laned unless on a blue light or emergency run.

Interestingly, I remember a few years ago my brother-in-law when training to be a driving instructor wanted to rewrite the HWC as it wasn't clear enough for him, he didn't stay in the industry long once qualified either.


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#39 13-11-09 07:04:59

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

....Based on my experiences in Scotland here are my thoughts for what they are worth as a new poster:
Positioning for bends for our normal driving (ie not emergency services) and outwith built up areas, should generally be central and not nearside or offside or opposing carriageway when there is following, preceeding or opposing traffic.

I would certainly agree with staying fairly central on a left hand bend if there is other traffic around, but I see no problem with moving to the left on a right hand bend.  A movement that is even condoned by the DSA!

The initial poster made reference to right of centre line for left hand bend and barring normal driving (overtaking, turning right etc) this would not be condoned and would definately be frowned upon and is 'old school' advanced driving and by that I mean numerous years out of date.

I would disagree with you on that.  It isn't recommended in Roadcraft, granted but it is still suggested on training runs and examiners (RoSPA/IAM) are still happy to see it used on test.  Health and Safety has had an influence and there is now a caveat that no-one else should be around (folllowing or oncoming).

Straight-lining roundabouts would definately be frowned upon when the roundabout is either lined or laned unless on a blue light or emergency run.

By the DSA and those that follow the DSA style perhaps, but I see nothing wrong with straightening roundabouts, provided you are not compromising safety or misleading another road user.  The advantage in straightening a roundabout is increased stability and, on occasion, it helps show where you are intending to go.  Some roundabouts can cause drivers to take a position that misleads others into thinking you may take 1st exit!


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#40 13-11-09 08:44:47

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

Before extending the vehicles position on a nearside bend there are a number factors that need careful consideration.
is it legal


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#41 13-11-09 09:45:43

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

I would disagree with you on that.  It isn't recommended in Roadcraft, granted but it is still suggested on training runs and examiners (RoSPA/IAM) are still happy to see it used on test.  Health and Safety has had an influence and there is now a caveat that no-one else should be around (folllowing or oncoming).

You can disagree if you like but it doesn't mean you are correct in what you are saying and you should look at what you're doing carefully. If it is still suggested on training runs then I would suggest said tutors/instructors look at what they are doing. If it is still looked for on tests by some IAM/RoSPA Examiners, then I suggest that said examiners get themselves up to date.

Went for a run recently with some Pistonhead forum members and some were happy to drive using whole road to make better progress - not correct to do it but if they wanted to do it to push their cars on, and at times, above the limits then that was up to them and they were aware of the consequences of any additional risks they were bringing into their drive. But .... and a big but, I wouldn't expect them to do it as a driving instructor and say it was ok to do it, never mind coach instruct other drivers to do it either through an advanced driving group or any other means!

Now, if the road was not marked with centre lines, thats a different thing and it is ok to use the full width of the road but again you need to be aware that you don't confuse following or preceeding traffic and don't put yourself at more risk at areas of restricted visibility. On narrower roads there are clear and distinct advantages of doing so when there is no room for two cars to pass.

Some are tip-toeing round about this but here goes without any malice intended:- While I appreciate the qualifications you have listed Nigel, I do think the hallmark of a better instructor is sometimes to take it on the chin and admit that heh . .  maybe sometimes I have been misguided and misjudged or even got it wrong or heh .. . things have changed a little and this bit is important so I will now change what I am doing or teaching!

Why would a professional instructor dig his or her heals in to drive (and maybe sometimes teaching) in contravention of a 'rule' in highway code (crossing centre lines when not overtaking or turning right) and also in contravention of 'guidelines' set out by IAM, RoSPA and other Fleet providers?

#42 13-11-09 10:41:10

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

''Now, if the road was not marked with centre lines, thats a different thing and it is ok to use the full width of the road but again you need to be aware that you don't confuse following or preceeding traffic and don't put yourself at more risk at areas of restricted visibility. On narrower roads there are clear and distinct advantages of doing so when there is no room for two cars to pass''.

A little confused by this neutral as broken white paint is not a solid obstacles, however I agree that IAM and RoSPA trainers should have firm guidelines on what is and is not acceptable when teaching a member of the public. They are essentially using tools in the tool box that are not designed or necessary for their use.
Leave it to the emergency services who receive specialist training on such driving techniques with the purpose of  enabling them to attend incidents as quickly and safely as possible.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#43 13-11-09 11:42:11

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

''Now, if the road was not marked with centre lines, thats a different thing and it is ok to use the full width of the road but again you need to be aware that you don't confuse following or preceeding traffic and don't put yourself at more risk at areas of restricted visibility. On narrower roads there are clear and distinct advantages of doing so when there is no room for two cars to pass''.

Basically if on a single carriageway with centre lines - stick to your own side of the road unless overtaking, turning right etc (very little to be gained by going over line to extend view when not overtaking and is not good practice)

If on a narrower road which then doesn't have centre lines it is generally ok, in absence of other road users, to use full width of road.


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#44 13-11-09 18:01:21

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

You can disagree if you like

Well that's jolly nice of you!  Thank you.

but it doesn't mean you are correct in what you are saying

Absolutely.  It is an opinion and I haven't phrased it in such a way to say that you are wrong and I am right.  I have always been happy to change if someone can show me the error of my ways.  That's how my driving & coaching skills have developed over the years.

and you should look at what you're doing carefully. If it is still suggested on training runs then I would suggest said tutors/instructors look at what they are doing. If it is still looked for on tests by some IAM/RoSPA Examiners, then I suggest that said examiners get themselves up to date.

Oh!  Is there something out there that says examiners mustn't allow offsiding?  I'm not aware of anything.  As I mentioned earlier, offsiding isn't recommended in Roadcraft, but neither is it forbidden.  It is something I rarely do but that isn't to say I would never do it.

Went for a run recently with some Pistonhead forum members and some were happy to drive using whole road to make better progress - not correct to do it but if they wanted to do it to push their cars on, and at times, above the limits then that was up to them and they were aware of the consequences of any additional risks they were bringing into their drive. But .... and a big but, I wouldn't expect them to do it as a driving instructor and say it was ok to do it, never mind coach instruct other drivers to do it either through an advanced driving group or any other means!

Crossing the centre line when there isn't a solid white line is not wrong, breaking the speed limit is, however and I wouldn't condone it except under exceptional circumstances.

Now, if the road was not marked with centre lines, thats a different thing and it is ok to use the full width of the road but again you need to be aware that you don't confuse following or preceeding traffic and don't put yourself at more risk at areas of restricted visibility. On narrower roads there are clear and distinct advantages of doing so when there is no room for two cars to pass.

Do you really feel that you need to spell this out on this sort of forum?  roll

Some are tip-toeing round about this but here goes without any malice intended:- While I appreciate the qualifications you have listed Nigel, I do think the hallmark of a better instructor is sometimes to take it on the chin and admit that heh . .  maybe sometimes I have been misguided and misjudged or even got it wrong or heh .. . things have changed a little and this bit is important so I will now change what I am doing or teaching!

Oh right!  So I'm wrong and you're right?  So that must mean that my RoSPA Diploma trainer must have been wrong, the chief examiner must be wrong, the local RoSPA & IAM examiners must also be wrong and all the local observers too.

Driving is such a large grey area that there are many ways of doing things, none of which are necessarily wrong.  I think you need to add some flexibility & adaptability to your approach.

Why would a professional instructor dig his or her heals in to drive (and maybe sometimes teaching) in contravention of a 'rule' in highway code (crossing centre lines when not overtaking or turning right) and also in contravention of 'guidelines' set out by IAM, RoSPA and other Fleet providers?

Dunno!  Why are you digging your heals in?

I am happy to leave others to develop their own style of driving.  I don't try telling people what they MUST or MUST not do.  I may suggest reasons why I would or wouldn't do something.  Flexibility & adaptability are key!

...A little confused by this neutral as broken white paint is not a solid obstacles, however I agree that IAM and RoSPA trainers should have firm guidelines on what is and is not acceptable when teaching a member of the public. They are essentially using tools in the tool box that are not designed or necessary for their use.

Are we? yikes  What an interesting accusation.

Leave it to the emergency services who receive specialist training on such driving techniques with the purpose of  enabling them to attend incidents as quickly and safely as possible.

and a condescending comment to finish off with!  roll

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

Offline

#45 13-11-09 18:22:58

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi,

I thought this is the very place it should be brought up ......  even although it is obvious we won't get consistency in training throughout large areas.

If the professional opinion from the top in IAM & RoSPA is that it shouldn't be done or condoned then yes I suggest the trainers and examiners take it up with IAM & RoSPA to sort out. This was made clear to all trainers and examiners several years ago via memos and minutes from meetings and it will always be a problem when individual trainers/examiners etc do their own thing because they think they know better!

But that is where you look a bit closer at individual personality traits and that becomes amusing sometimes when you can anticipate how someone is going to react and respond digging their heels in even further.

Condescending, no, I don't even think that is, I think it is merely stating a valid point as a suggestion or recommendation and based on how this thread has developed over a period of time I can see why it has been posted as a reply.

#46 13-11-09 18:33:40

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

'Oh right!  So I'm wrong and you're right?  So that must mean that my RoSPA Diploma trainer must have been wrong, the chief examiner must be wrong, the local RoSPA & IAM examiners must also be wrong and all the local observers too.'

Just re-read that bit again and maybe it is a local problem that should be clarified via RoSPA & IAM HQ. If the local examiners and senior examiners are looking for or accepting that on test then it stands to reason why local observers would be doing it too...... and so it continues


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#47 13-11-09 18:52:43

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

'Oh right!  So I'm wrong and you're right?  So that must mean that my RoSPA Diploma trainer must have been wrong, the chief examiner must be wrong, the local RoSPA & IAM examiners must also be wrong and all the local observers too.'

Just re-read that bit again and maybe it is a local problem that should be clarified via RoSPA & IAM HQ. If the local examiners and senior examiners are looking for or accepting that on test then it stands to reason why local observers would be doing it too...... and so it continues

Didn't say the examiners were looking for offsiding just that they don't mark it down unless there is a safety issue.  What makes you think this is a local area problem?  I work in Swindon.  RoSPA HQ is in Birmingham.  I was trained on the Diploma by a trainer who is based in East Anglia and examined by the chief examiner who works out of Birmingham.  Hardly a local problem!

Why do you feel the need to be intransigent?  Why does only one system have to be used?  I would rather follow Roadcraft than the DSA for my own driving as I find it much more flexible.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

Offline

#48 13-11-09 19:17:20

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

It would appear Nigel that everyone that disagrees with your point of view is either condescending or patronising. Not so.
You really ought to take more time to read each post carefully and look at the overall picture rather than taking individual words and phrases out of context.
Some very valid points have been made in other posts including those from on board training, it might be a good idea to listen to  advice and guidance offered by trainers that are experienced and knowledgable in this particular area of training.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

Offline


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#49 13-11-09 20:04:10

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Didn't say the examiners were looking for offsiding just that they don't mark it down unless there is a safety issue.  What makes you think this is a local area problem?  I work in Swindon.  RoSPA HQ is in Birmingham.  I was trained on the Diploma by a trainer who is based in East Anglia and examined by the chief examiner who works out of Birmingham.  Hardly a local problem!

Why do you feel the need to be intransigent?  Why does only one system have to be used?  I would rather follow Roadcraft than the DSA for my own driving as I find it much more flexible. Nigel

Ok then maybe the problem is as big as I first though and not local ........... no, it possibly couldn't be! ! Almost finding it hard not to chuckle a this bit  . . . . . .  . . . me intransigent? Look within before you look out!

Wait a minute . . . . .  another interesting development here  . . . . . . I think many experienced trainers (although I will stand corrected if the right authoritive figure tells me otherwise (as I don't think I am intransigent when faced with experience and reasoned judgement)) would happily state they are working to the one system whether they are teaching/coaching; learners, Pt2, Pt3, Advanced or Fleet. It is merely the ability of the instructor/coach and student that will determine how the student may progress.

I would also suggest that if you find Roadcraft more flexible than DSA for your own driving, then you are not using it the way it is intended and you should be looking closely at why you need more 'flexibility' in your own driving!

I have been using the principles in Roadcraft before looking at my Pt2 and have not found any conflict for teaching/coaching.


Touch-paper well and truly lit!


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#50 13-11-09 20:10:52

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

It would appear Nigel that everyone that disagrees with your point of view is either condescending or patronising. Not so.

Might I suggest you read back through my many posts?  I think you will find you are wrong in thinking that I consider everyone who disagrees with me to be condescending or patronising.  In recent times I can only think of yourself as being in the receiving line of such suggestions!  There are many others on these forums with whom I have disagreed in the past, none of which made patronising or condescending remarks.

You really ought to take more time to read each post carefully and look at the overall picture rather than taking individual words and phrases out of context.
Some very valid points have been made in other posts including those from on board training, it might be a good idea to listen to  advice and guidance offered by trainers that are experienced and knowledgable in this particular area of training.

I agree some very valid points have been made in posts on this thread and my main gripe with On Board Training is that he/she seems very rigid & inflexible in their viewpoint. 

On Board training has suggested that we should train to only one system, regardless of the standard of the pupil.  I happen to disagree, mainly because I feel Roadcraft to be a better, safer more flexible standard than that the DSA preaches and there are parts of Roadcraft that the DSA frown on so it would hardly be feasible to teach Roadcraft (in its entirety) to learners.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

Offline

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