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#1 30-10-08 20:25:53

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Member
Registered: 02-12-07
Posts: 6

Position for Corners.

During my time as a Fleet Trainer I have come across people who in previous training courses have ALLEGEDLY been advised to, position to the right of the centre line on approach to left hand bends. I am not talking about open viewed double / series of bends here but left handers, some with very limited views on narrow roads. 
When we have talked about this they have said they have been told it improves their vision. I understand the arguement but all too often they use this positioning in inappropriate places.
Any opinions as to the problems / benefits of such positioning. 
   

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30-10-08 20:25:53

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Re: Position for Corners.




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#2 30-10-08 20:36:33

tony adi
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From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
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Re: Position for Corners.

Not something I'd do or advocate others to do for, what should be, obvious reasons. I know where it comes from and have (no doubt as you have yourself) heard all the arguments for and against, and I'm in the against camp.


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#3 30-10-08 20:57:43

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

It was always suggested that this came from the IAM/RoSPA camp, but both organisations have recently made it clear that there should be no crossing of the centre line for view.

I'd suggest that the previous trainers have been ex-police drivers, for whom there are good reasons for this.

As a H&S at work issue I would definitely not advise it - can you imagine being called in as a witness for the defense ("yes, I did say that, but I didn't mean to do it when there was a truck coming.....")?

Benefits - view and stability at speed when used correctly.

Downsides - unless the driver really is extremely competent and can assess the safety very accurately it can be quite incredibly dangerous. At work there should be no need for the kind of speed where this becomes a benefit.

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#4 30-10-08 22:22:00

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: Position for Corners.

Benefits - view and stability at speed when used correctly.

Downsides - unless the driver really is extremely competent and can assess the safety very accurately it can be quite incredibly dangerous. At work there should be no need for the kind of speed where this becomes a benefit.

I'm with Tim  and that's basically what we were taught on the Dip course.

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#5 09-11-08 20:10:19

David1108
Member
Registered: 09-11-08
Posts: 27

Re: Position for Corners.

Well I am a advanced driver of a car and if we move close to the centre line without moving across it we open up the view to see more.  Also if we move to the left near to the kerb then we again open up the view.  But I also know it will work in a lorry but can't say for sure.

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#6 09-11-08 21:41:21

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

You may need to be a little careful here David.  You appear to be coming across a little on the patronising side.  The advantage of view has already been mentioned, but you need to realise that there are also disadvantages to this action as mentioned by Tim, Lynne & others.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#7 09-11-08 21:51:29

jonnmedds
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 154

Re: Position for Corners.

I've never been a big fan of moving to the centre line for left bends and to the kerb for right bends as I find drivers tend to take it a step too far. Last week I was out with a company driver who is also an IAM member.

On one left corner he was so close to the centre line that he had to take evasive action to avoid an artic who cut the white line(the bend was so tight the HGV had no choice)

On right bends he was so close to the kerb that we were hitting the drain grids and driving over all of the rubbish that gets pushed over to the kerb.

His reasoning was, it was an advanced technique to improve his visibility and thus his safety sad

The problem I find is that drivers missunderstand the advise they are given by trainers and observers and as Tim say's there's no way we as fleet trainers can advise our clients to folow this technique in case they cause an accident.

Does positioning really make a big difference to our visibility?

Jon

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#8 09-11-08 21:57:53

David1108
Member
Registered: 09-11-08
Posts: 27

Re: Position for Corners.

Well I know it works for cars but not get too know to the kerb or the the centre line.  But yes he may need to get over as he will see more road.  I love using this way of going round bands as it opens up the view.  I don't know it a bus or lorry can do the same as I can.  It would be good to find out. 

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#9 09-11-08 22:28:50

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Position for Corners.

Perhaps it not that they misunderstand the advice,but perhaps its how it is explained to them and that it should only be done if the appropriate circumstances are right.  The problem that I find with most people when showing this is that you show them one scenario and they think that it can be done all the time in similar scenarios which is not always the case and it should be demonstrated over and over in as many different scenarios as possible not just on half a day or a full day.
Stephen 

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#10 09-11-08 22:47:33

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: Position for Corners.

Perhaps it not that they misunderstand the advice,but perhaps its how it is explained to them and that it should only be done if the appropriate circumstances are right.  The problem that I find with most people when showing this is that you show them one scenario and they think that it can be done all the time in similar scenarios which is not always the case and it should be demonstrated over and over in as many different scenarios as possible not just on half a day or a full day.
Stephen

Definitely and surely each corner will be taken on it's own merits each and every time you approach it.  Any number of situations could mean a different approach to the same corner.

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#11 09-11-08 23:49:00

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

David, I'll apologise if my comments seem insensitive or in any way dampen your enthusiasm for the forum, but....

....simply repeating a simplistic view of what IAM suggest, after these basics have already been covered amply will not win you any friends.

Please read through the whole thread before posting and avoid repeating things that the previous posters have said. If you have new information, please add it or if you have a question, please post it.

Also, as you are working towards becoming an observer I would suggest that you pay close attention to your communication. It may be that your spoken communication is excellent, however your written communication could do with a little more clarity.

If you have something important to say, it may be worth creating a new thread, rather than dredging up ones from ancient history. This one isn't terribly old, but I've seen another that you found from several years ago.

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#12 17-12-08 16:46:10

paulcook
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From: Edinburgh
Registered: 13-05-08
Posts: 130
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

For me, the whole "roadcraft" approach to positioning for left and right hand bends belongs with   (a) emergency response vehicles  and (b) males of varying ages who need to grow up a wee bit.

Whilst many males wouldn't admit it, driving is only one step up from playing sport.  This approach to dealing with bends elevates them in their own minds as somehow more skilful.  Males love this.  Because many males are inherently immature.

I know one advanced driver who regularly cuts a straight line through multi-lane roundabouts when it's quiet, and just loves to tell me it's because "the quickest, safest way etc etc".  As far as I'm concerned, this driver is like many, in that he's actually playing sport, i.e. I'd bet it's the same parts of the brain that are stimulated as when he's playing his Wi or E-box.

I'll conclude my rant by suggesting that people of that persuasion should go join the police.  Alternatively, slow down a bit and come to terms with the fact that driving is actually very serious and potentially dangerous. 

Phew.  Haven't had a good blow out like that in ages.  Feel great now.


Paul Cook, ADI, Grade 5, DIAmond Special Test

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#13 17-12-08 21:57:13

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

Interesting rant Paul.  Funnily enough I don't really agree with you.  Yes there may be some people who don't fully understand the techniques and there will be some who see it as an ego thing.  I enjoy using the Roadcraft techniques in, I hope, the right situations.  They aren't a 'do it every time' thing, they depend on the situation around you at the time.   If this 'advanced driver' (don't like the term personally, but I will stick with it since you used it) only straightens the roundabouts when it is quiet and isn't inconveniencing or endangering anyone what's the problem?  It does help to maintain stability of the vehicle and, because you have more chance of maintaining momentum it can benefit fuel consumption.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#14 18-12-08 03:59:40

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

Positioning for best view is good practice.
However, if when positioned for best view and you see approaching vehicles, move back to a safer line that increases clearance.

Those "advanced" drivers that move left of centre for left bends and then stay there when traffic approaches are failing to appreciate, apply or understand the underlying  principles.

Likewise, those that straight line roundabouts that do not take into account limited view approaches from other directions are also not applying the underlying principles correctly.

Any civilian that uses positional changes or straight lining techniques for the purposes of making good progress or to get to their destination quicker are completely missing the point, and without any shadow of a doubt are misguided both in the application of the techniques and will fail in their goal for the majority of their time.

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#15 18-12-08 05:16:52

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

....Any civilian that uses positional changes or straight lining techniques for the purposes of making good progress or to get to their destination quicker are completely missing the point, and without any shadow of a doubt are misguided both in the application of the techniques and will fail in their goal for the majority of their time.

The progress issue is often over emphasised, it is just one small part of the whole.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#16 18-12-08 08:19:02

paulcook
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 13-05-08
Posts: 130
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

Yes, now that I've had a good sleep, I'll accept I have a chip on my shoulder about "roadcraft" and my post tarred too many people with the same brush.  However, I do feel there's an element of truth in what I say.

I guess the nail's been hit on the head when we talk about many "advanced drivers" applying certain aspects of roadcraft without understanding the underlying principles or seeing the big picture.  Thanks for your replies.


Paul Cook, ADI, Grade 5, DIAmond Special Test

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#17 18-12-08 08:23:28

gday
Verified Member
From: Oxfordshire
Registered: 27-04-05
Posts: 531
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

Whilst many males wouldn't admit it, driving is only one step up from playing sport.

What's that supposed to suggest about those that play sport?

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#18 18-12-08 09:10:39

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

Re: Position for Corners.

Well I am a advanced driver of a car and if we move close to the centre line without moving across it we open up the view to see more.  Also if we move to the left near to the kerb then we again open up the view.  But I also know it will work in a lorry but can't say for sure.

You need to position a large vehicle to ensure the back end of it stays within its own lane. If you start messing with the road position to improve your view you will end up with the back end all over the road. As lanes are often only slightly wider than a large vehicle there is little scope for varying the road position to improve your view. To ensure the back end stays within its lane you need to take the front end the longest route around a bend. Or else the back end cuts the corner.

Sadly many non vocational drivers towing trailers or driving larger vehicles fail to understand this concept and have terrible road positioning.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#19 19-12-08 11:37:39

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: Position for Corners.

Judging from those I have seen positioning from increased view, it is often done to allow higher speeds. While this may be necessary for emergency services, is it really necessary for the majority?

I was taught to 'drive at the speed you can see to be safe' & use a position of centre of lane or one meter from kerb whichever is closer (avoiding potholes, draintops, puddles etc. which on narrow lanes may mean closer to centre).

In my opinion straightlining roundabouts is bad practice at any time. Bad habits like this are easy to get into and start happening even when traffic is heavy. I have seen on a daily basic these 'straightliners' cutting fully into lane 2 when turning left at a roundabout on a 2 lane DC and it appears that the only reason they do this is to turn left at a higher speed than they should.

To straightline when quiet but follow lanes when there is traffic implies that you can pick & chose what 'rules' to follow & when to follow them.
If it's OK to ignore lane discipline when it's quiet, is it OK to exceed speed limits, cut right turns, go wide on left turns, go through red lights, etc. etc. etc. when the roads are quiet as long as you do it correctly when there is traffic?

Of course, drivers of larger vehicles & those towing trailers need to adapt the rules as necessary. For this reason I give pupils examples how how road position of large vehicles differs from that of a car driver to help them understand what to expect in a variety of situations.

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#20 19-12-08 14:04:47

adi
Verified Member
From: shropshire
Registered: 28-02-04
Posts: 1,231
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

To straightline when quiet but follow lanes when there is traffic implies that you can pick & chose what 'rules' to follow & when to follow them.

Thats correct.

Negotiating an open roundabout at 5am with no traffic may be different from negotiating it at 5pm. The difference with most 'passive' drivers is that they are unaware or ignorant of the dangers surrounding them when cutting into other lanes. The idea of advanced driving is having and applying an enhanced level of awareness to decide on what the best course of action is needed for the situation you are driving in at all times.
Earlier this year i 'straightlined' roundabouts on both Rospa and Cardington no problem. the technique was only used as and when appropriate, and if there is any doubt then don't.

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#21 19-12-08 15:05:51

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: Position for Corners.

To straightline when quiet but follow lanes when there is traffic implies that you can pick & chose what 'rules' to follow & when to follow them.
If it's OK to ignore lane discipline when it's quiet, is it OK to exceed speed limits, cut right turns, go wide on left turns, go through red lights, etc. etc. etc. when the roads are quiet as long as you do it correctly when there is traffic?

Well I suppose it also depends on whether you know the difference between a rule and a law.

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#22 19-12-08 15:31:11

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Position for Corners.

Thats why there are Advanced drivers and people who think that they are Advanced drivers.  Roadcraft was introduced for the police and it is taught in conjunction with a very strict driving course on a day to day basis over a 6 week period.  Then there is the offshoots of the Advanced driving circuit which do it once a week over a longer period with no guarantee that the associate is reading the book along with the observer being trusted to know and understand the roadcraft book.
Stephen 

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#23 19-12-08 22:18:43

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

....In my opinion straightlining roundabouts is bad practice at any time.....

That's your perogative (sp?).  But would you be so kind as to explain why you hold this opinion?

While you're at it, might it be a good idea to stop emerging at T-junctions.  It could turn into a bad habit and you may pull out in front of another vehicle! big_smile

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#24 22-12-08 01:18:42

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: Position for Corners.

Basically there is no difference between as rule & a law (heard of the rule of law?), both are there for a reason & should not be broken. The main difference becomes apparent when you are caught breaking them. Break a law & you are liable to prosecution whereas break a rule and all that is likely to happen is you get a telling off or advise. A rule could become a law if the powers that be deemed it necessary.

The highway code sets out the basic rules which, if followed by everyone help to make our roads a safer place. I haven't found anywhere in the highway code or the essential skill that says it's OK to straightline a r-bout if traffic is light. Do you teach your pupils to do this?

In my opinion straightlining roundabouts is bad practice at any time.

I hold this opinion because I expect other drivers to drive according to the rules (but then I do expect the unexpected).

What benefits are there to be gained by the 'normal' (by that I mean non emergency services) driver? The only one that I can see is that it would allow a driver to negotiate the RB faster than it is designed to be negotiated at thereby gaining a few seconds.
It has been mentioned that

It does help to maintain stability of the vehicle

but if you drive 'according to the road conditions (& that includes design limitations) then there is no stability issues. As for improving fuel consumption, is that a good enough reason to 'break the rules'?

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#25 22-12-08 06:55:38

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

Basically there is no difference between as rule & a law (heard of the rule of law?), both are there for a reason & should not be broken. The main difference becomes apparent when you are caught breaking them. Break a law & you are liable to prosecution whereas break a rule and all that is likely to happen is you get a telling off or advise. A rule could become a law if the powers that be deemed it necessary.

Basically there is no difference between as rule & a law.......The main difference becomes apparent
:? :? :? :? :?

The highway code sets out the basic rules which, if followed by everyone help to make our roads a safer place. I haven't found anywhere in the highway code or the essential skill that says it's OK to straightline a r-bout if traffic is light. Do you teach your pupils to do this?

Occasionally I will teach a pupil to do it and I do believe I should probably do it more often - they are likely to do it after they pass their test so perhaps we should teach them to do it safely! 

As to whether the Highway Code says I can straighten a roundabout...well it doesn't say the lane MUST be followed so really that is leaving the driver the choice.  By making that choice then it is up to the driver to ensure safety.  The driver must also accept any consequences from making that choice!

In my opinion straightlining roundabouts is bad practice at any time.

I hold this opinion because I expect other drivers to drive according to the rules (but then I do expect the unexpected).

Ahh!  But Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! yikes  Sorry, felt the compulsion to go off on a tangent.  My apologies to those non-Python fans!

That's fine, I doubt if anyone will have a problem with you staying in your lane on a roundabout.  Neither should anyone have a problem with others straightening a roundabout safely.

What benefits are there to be gained by the 'normal' (by that I mean non emergency services) driver? The only one that I can see is that it would allow a driver to negotiate the RB faster than it is designed to be negotiated at thereby gaining a few seconds.
It has been mentioned that

It does help to maintain stability of the vehicle

but if you drive 'according to the road conditions (& that includes design limitations) then there is no stability issues. As for improving fuel consumption, is that a good enough reason to 'break the rules'?

I believe the importance given to this 'rule' in the Highway Code is shown by the absence or either MUST or even SHOULD.   It is purely guidance. Yes the HC may be used in a prosecution if you cause an accident by straightening the rbt but in that situation the rbt shouldn't have been straightened.  Any manoeuvre must always be accompanied by effective observation.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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