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#1 24-07-08 22:04:19

spyder_steve
Verified Member
From: Leicester
Registered: 24-07-08
Posts: 274
Website

Reverse Park

I've got a question, since its my 1st one big_smile

I'm on a trainee Licence, and always try and conduct the lessons as if it was a Part3 Exam PST.

My question is the reference points, this is how I do it:

Pull up at side of Car (4ft Wide, 1/2 Car length Forward)
Reverese, (POM)
stop at 1st Ref point (Back pillar to Back/Front of Parked Car)
1x steer Left
Stop at 2nd Ref point (Our center pillar at back of parked Car)
1x Steer off (wheels straight)

3rd Ref point (Stop when kerb dissapears in Left Mirror)
then steer Right

Just before Parrellel with Kerb Turn off Steer (Left Steer)

My query is the 3rd Ref Point, I cant get it to work with all my pupils, esp if their a little smaller than me, I tend to use the mirror and "Judge the distance of the back wheel to the kerb", as the Trainers say, do it yourself and talk your way thru it!

I've used the mirror, Front Glass, Tax disc, Wipers, Kerb under mirror, sticker on dashboard, Front Window quater, Front lamp, Registration plate, kerb above the door, what am i doing wrong, as i would say nearly half of my pupils get that last bit wrong. the ones that do get it right say "they just know", so I know i'm teaching something wrong.
My trainer says always use the kerb as it never changes, but if you cant see the kerb what are you suppose to use ?

frustrating  :?


Grade: B
Sign language Specialist (BSL 1, 2 and pre level 3)

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24-07-08 22:04:19

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Re: Reverse Park




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#2 24-07-08 23:04:56

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Reverse Park

You are using the 1-1-full lock method.
The 3rd reference point that works for many novices prior to them gaining judgement is kerb line and wheelarch.
As the car creeps back with  the car at the angle but front wheels straight, the kerb will apeear ABOVE the wheel arch as viewed in the nearside door mirror.

Allow the car to CREEP back until the kerb appears 1/2 way down the wheel arch. At which reference, apply full lock (briskly) to the right. Straighten the wheels as the front parking reference point re-alligns with the kerb.

Different model cars will have slightly different reference point heights on the wheel arch, but for the majority of car models used by instructors it will be about 1/2 way down the wheel arch.  Too low and the car will finish too tight to the kerb (no room for correction). Too high and the car will finish wide of the kerb ( correction possible by removing some of the steer).

Some of my smaller pupils have said that the front door handle lines up with the kerb at precisely the same moment that the kerbline appears to reach the 1/2 way point of the wheel arch.


The TRUE reference point is actually the wheel distance from the kerb. The reference point I'm suggesting would actually be when the rear wheel is about 4-5 bricks widths from the kerb, and with full lock would place the rear wheel parallel to the kerb and approx 2 bricks' widths from it.

(I mention bricks widths to my pupils as a number of roads locally have gutters lined with bricks, typically 3 bricks wide).

Experiment a few times in your own car to see where the kerb appears to be in relation to the wheel arch, the wheel, or any other physical attribute of your vehicle.

I have intentionally not mentioned the rear window reference point as shorter drivers do not benifit from being able to see  it.

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#3 24-07-08 23:12:00

spyder_steve
Verified Member
From: Leicester
Registered: 24-07-08
Posts: 274
Website

Re: Reverse Park

after all the years that wheel arch's have been made i never thought of using that one !
If i cant see the wheel arch i'll get it painted a bright colour to see clearly !!

Much appreciated, i'll start practising first thing in the morning smile


Grade: B
Sign language Specialist (BSL 1, 2 and pre level 3)

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#4 25-07-08 06:56:11

driverpete
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 06-02-06
Posts: 457

Re: Reverse Park

Or you could do what I do and get the pupil to work out the reference point that works for themselves. It can take 2 or 3 goes to get it right but they remember it because they did it themselves.


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#5 25-07-08 07:50:52

Janeway
Verified Member
From: North West
Registered: 28-03-07
Posts: 62
Website

Re: Reverse Park

Is their speed varying?  wink


ORDIT Registered ADI Trainer
Fleet Trainer
Grade 6
B.Ed
http://www.voyagerinstructortraining.com

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#6 25-07-08 07:56:10

spyder_steve
Verified Member
From: Leicester
Registered: 24-07-08
Posts: 274
Website

Re: Reverse Park

Tried to get the pupil to work it out themselves, they seem to "guess it", even if i get them to stop at the correct Turning point and look for a ref point, the problem i found using the Parked car as a ref point when turning back in is that it can change quite a bit from car to car.
Trainer's always say use the kerb as a Ref as it never changes.
i suppose it was me getting the pupil looking at the wrong place at the wrong time, Its a pain the rear end esp when the rest of the maneuver is just about perfect.
Hey Ho, thats what a Pinky is for isn't it !!??? lol


Grade: B
Sign language Specialist (BSL 1, 2 and pre level 3)

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#7 25-07-08 07:57:42

spyder_steve
Verified Member
From: Leicester
Registered: 24-07-08
Posts: 274
Website

Re: Reverse Park

Speed is slow, always get them to "pause" at all 3 ref points to controll their speed. its my way of controlling them at the early stages of learning


Grade: B
Sign language Specialist (BSL 1, 2 and pre level 3)

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#8 25-07-08 08:53:35

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Reverse Park

The problem is probably the fact that your 3rd ref is when the kerb Dissappears!

If they're travelling too quick this could be a couple of foot too far.

Get them to adjust their mirrors (you don't need to see sky) down a little and have that third reference point as "the last possible point you can still see the kerb" or "tiny triangle between kerb & car".

This way if they can still see it they should be fine. If they can see too much then at least they've got something to work with.

And finally - don't worry too much about it - teach them how to rescue it if it's not perfect as many people will go a little awry on test and in their own cars anyway, so rescuing a r-park safely is an important skill for them to have.

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#9 25-07-08 11:26:54

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Reverse Park

Ignore all the rubbish above and make it simple!

Pull alonside vehicle slightly further forwards,( how far past or how close irrelevant) As soon as vehicle moves steer half turn left, when vehicle is half a metre from kerb take off steering all the way right and straighten when car is parallel.

Get rid of all the complications and keep it simple. If the pupil cant repeat the method back to you its no good!


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
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#10 25-07-08 11:50:00

mani
Verified Member
Registered: 05-06-08
Posts: 67

Re: Reverse Park

I have to agree with hector, this is the way i am doing it on my part 2, a simple method but works everytime.

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#11 25-07-08 22:12:54

spyder_steve
Verified Member
From: Leicester
Registered: 24-07-08
Posts: 274
Website

Re: Reverse Park

"Get them to adjust their mirrors (you don't need to see sky) down a little and have that third reference point as "the last possible point you can still see the kerb" or "tiny triangle between kerb & car".

Worked a treat, got 3 pupils today to do it as a PST Phase II, Just before the kerb dissapears in the left Mirror turn 1 Full turn Right, even tried it with a pupil thats just over 5ft 2", except i got them to steer a little slower to compensate, however i didn't need them to adjust the mirror down as it was at it lowest with the small pupil
I must say the Wheel arch was a little difficult as it was hard to see as it blends in with the rest of the bodywork.


Much appreciated for everyone's help, did try them all, I'm amazed how helpfull some ppl are :afro:


Grade: B
Sign language Specialist (BSL 1, 2 and pre level 3)

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#12 26-07-08 13:20:02

Luchell
Verified Member
From: Salisbury
Registered: 12-06-07
Posts: 1,661

Re: Reverse Park

I use the little round blindspot mirrors on each door mirror. No staring in them is not a good idea but i do find them useful as do the pupils for keeping an eye on where they are in relation to the kerb.

http://www.rcmmarketing.co.uk/shop/system/index.html

2'' ones are the ones I use.

Using one method all the time isn't neccessarily the best idea, it is better to have a few tried and tested ways of doing something incase a particular pupil struggles with one particular method. What works for one won't always work for another.

I think refering to the above posts/methods as rubbish is a little harsh Hector. I usually teach 1-2-1 to most of mine, they can repeat back what to do when to do it and they do understand it. I also have variants as i am sure most people do incase a pupil needs to vary something or try a different way of doing something, not much good if you find a method great, works everytime for you but one thing won't suit everyone so have some backup!  Some pupils use judgement and nothing else and will get the car in perfectly every time. Others can't so we vary a method to suit the pupil.

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#13 26-07-08 13:34:14

Luchell
Verified Member
From: Salisbury
Registered: 12-06-07
Posts: 1,661

Re: Reverse Park

Also, if you have any pupils who have spatial awareness issues some may well not be able to judge half a metre from the kerb, similar to pupils who struggle with someone telling them when the car is at a certain angle or at '2 o' clock', once again there are many who cannot work with this. Some cannot grasp points e.g door mirror level with the rear of the target car, some will say they can but in reality you can see they cannot. For those pupils a picture of what they should see at any given 'point' can sort that issue.

I used to get totally and utterly sick of my instructor telling me to line the wiper notch up with the kerb when i was parking!! I had no idea whatsoever what he was on about.    roll

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#14 26-07-08 14:20:57

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Reverse Park

The rubish was a joke Hayley!

But my method is the best and will work with ALL pupils! We have wayz to get zem to judge the half metre!


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#15 26-07-08 14:54:25

Luchell
Verified Member
From: Salisbury
Registered: 12-06-07
Posts: 1,661

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#16 26-07-08 21:23:20

spyder_steve
Verified Member
From: Leicester
Registered: 24-07-08
Posts: 274
Website

Re: Reverse Park

we all get told to "vary the method of instruction" used in our early days of instructing just like Luchell says, couldn't agree more, but its the essential part III test what were trying to achieve, the kerb disspaearing in the mirror worked a treat,
Now, using blindspots mirrors is ok for pupils, but you try and use that on your part III, surely the SE will throw that straight out and claim he cant see, or make up some excuse not to use the blind spot mirrors, now your stuffed !  yikes

I found its best to have 2-3 ways of doing this maneuver just in case you get 1 awkward one !


Grade: B
Sign language Specialist (BSL 1, 2 and pre level 3)

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#17 26-07-08 23:14:40

Luchell
Verified Member
From: Salisbury
Registered: 12-06-07
Posts: 1,661

Re: Reverse Park

No, the blindspot are fine as long as they re used as part of all round effective observtions. S.e's don't have an issue with it as long as there is no staring encouraged!!  A quick glance is fine, as i say effectove obs

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#18 26-07-08 23:16:17

Luchell
Verified Member
From: Salisbury
Registered: 12-06-07
Posts: 1,661

Re: Reverse Park

I use reference ponts as well, the mirrors are just a useful aid  smile

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#19 31-07-08 20:12:29

Mat_Leeke
Verified Member
From: Kenilworth, Warwickshire
Registered: 03-05-08
Posts: 41
Website

Re: Reverse Park

I use the left door mirror in my part 3 training and find as long as the speed is slow, steering fast and the left turn before is on time it works every single time. Whether it would work with a learner rather than my trainer remains to be seen when I pass


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#20 07-09-08 14:05:57

johnnyfr
Verified Member
Registered: 06-01-07
Posts: 228
Website

Re: Reverse Park

Just a thought.....
I have always taught pupils to finish up with the wheels straight as that's the way I was taught for Part 2. Is that the case though?
What would the ex say if they finish parallel but with wheels pointing right?

I'm talking about a flat road - not a hill by the way.


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#21 07-09-08 14:09:32

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
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Re: Reverse Park

Depends on the situation really.

On a wide road, turned wheels will not cause too much trouble to anyone, but on a narrow road, cyclists could have problems passing the vehicle when wheels are sticking out.

I'd recommend that you continue trying to get them to straighten the wheels wherever possible.

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