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#1 17-07-07 15:59:19

Carlos Fandango
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Registered: 18-10-06
Posts: 29

ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Is right in this day and age that the DSA is advocating Roadcraft for fleet driver training when as far as I can see,
there is not one seconds consideration given in this method to the topic of Eco driving?

It seems to be mainly about pressing on were ever safely possible and this = advanced ????

Should we not be taking in to consideration fuel economy, higher emission from ultimately unnecessary higher engines revs ?
( we're not on emergency response ! ) higher wear and tear on engines, transmissions, tyres,etc

All of these surely have a knock on effect?

What d'ya think


Carlos

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17-07-07 15:59:19

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Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????



#2 17-07-07 16:47:57

reddragonbus
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From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

I don't feel that advanced driving is just about pressing on. Yes make progress but one of the major factors of fleet training is reducing running costs for companies and fuel consumption is a factor in this.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#3 17-07-07 18:37:37

ijmoore
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From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
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Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

I can make progress AND be economical!  It comes down to planning ahead, good driving and techniques.  Makes it easy in a VRS though LOL! wink

I made good progress today Far side of Stafford to Uttoxeter, 29minutes well within limits, 42MPG with petrol car and AC fully on, 2 overtakes safe, and legally!  Thanks to limit points, accelerator sense and planning ahead! No Probs!


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#4 17-07-07 18:54:45

hector
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From: Manchester
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Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Hi Carlos

The DSA are not actually advocating roadcraft for fleet, DSA style is fine for fleet. The vast majority of fleet companies dont recognise the DSA style though so roadcraft is better.

Roadcraft driving styles will have to change in the future to become more fuel effiecent. 

The DSA put big emphasis on fuel economy in the fleet market. Then again the whole DSA system is flawed regarding saving fuel with too much emphasis on progress.


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#5 17-07-07 21:34:12

Carlos Fandango
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Registered: 18-10-06
Posts: 29

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Hi All,

Thanks for the quick replies.

Hector, I stand corrected if the DSA are not actually advocating Roadcraft / Fleetcraft , or there again are they??? It's certainly on the recommended reading list for the Fleet Badge Course.

To me , the whole area seems a bit muddled .

When I did my fleet badge,  I was tested to the Diamond Special  Test  marking system ( I think,  the trainer is a Diamond Special examiner ) and there was a big emphasis on Eco, keeping the revs down and avoiding unnecessary gear changes, which yes, does involve planning ahead and accelerator sense yikes

I worked hard to ensure my driving was up to standard before commencing the course and was pleased to get through with only one driver error. However, If most fleet companies don't recognise the DSA / Diamond style, it seems a bit of a waste of time , surely I should have been tested to the Roadcraft syllabus ?

I am currently undertaking the Roada driver training course which I'm enjoying and Roadcraft certainly has a lot of good things to offer but, it is simply not addressing the Eco issue, why should it ? It's the essential Police drivers handbook and fuel efficiency is not there primary concern.

I would whole heartedly agree with you Hector that roadcraft driving styles will have to factor this in more in future.



"I don't feel that advanced driving is just about pressing on. Yes make progress but one of the major factors of fleet training is reducing running costs for companies and fuel consumption is a factor in this."

I would agree whole heartedly and did train for and deliver the  Safed for Vans course.

Carlos







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#6 18-07-07 06:45:30

ijmoore
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Registered: 25-10-06
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Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

I can't see you failing any advanced test for using DSA techniques well?  Surely the advanced tests are looking for "good" and "safe" driving which balances eco with progress.... well funny enough thats what I teach my learners in theory under the DSA ideals.

However Roadcraft is such a great book, and very easily to understand, reading it and applying techniques where necessary should be encouraged with all drivers. 

Commentry is the best angle to go into because then the examiner/observers can see what your thought processes are, wheather DSA or roadcraft, or a mix of the two so long as it makes sense, is safe, makes reasonable progress, economically then why would anyone argue with that, yeah, they could say we could have pressed on a bit more there, however so long as you could justify it with something reasonable....fair enough?


I argee the whole area seems a bit "muddled" I truely believe people should do more BASIC driver training, and more advanced drivers would make the roads safer and more effiecient. 


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Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
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#7 05-08-07 14:05:55

ExAdiNigel
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From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Which parts of Roadcraft are so against economy then?  Expert use of acceleration / braking sense will certainly save fuel.  Minimising gearchanges will also save fuel.  The big fuel wasting cuplrit is harsh use of the accelerator & brakes, this certainly isn't advocated within Roadcraft.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#8 06-08-07 17:11:14

Carlos Fandango
Verified Member
Registered: 18-10-06
Posts: 29

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Nigel

Of course expert use of acceleration and braking could help fuel economy.

I am simply saying the issue of economy is not specifically addressed with in roadcraft, and that in today's world may be it should be  :?


Carlos


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#9 06-08-07 21:32:56

ExAdiNigel
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From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

But Carlos,  which bits of Roadcraft can be construed as not being eco friendly?

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#10 06-08-07 22:45:39

kev elliott
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Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Carlos,  Roadcraft puts safety at the top of the tree in all aspects of driving - positioning, gear selection, braking signaling and planning. One of the ealier variations had a mnemonic that was "Can (Course) My(Mirrors) Safety(Speed) Be (Brakes) Given (Gear) Away(acceleration)". THis evolved into what is used today,  IPSGA - Information, Position, Speed, Gear, Acceleration  This emphasis on safety of being in the correct gear for the conditions may seem as though economical driving is being compromised as indeed it will be and should in the interests of safety - If you are going into a situation where you cannot see what is happening then I would want to be in the gear that gave me best control of the car, if it meant I used a bit more fuel so be it. However when you can see the conditions suit then you would select the approriate gear for the conditions.

As Nigel asks what part of ROadcraft is not Eco friendly?   

#11 07-08-07 13:17:59

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Id agree with most of the above but

The whole DSA or Roadcraft emphasis on progress is flawed and is not eco-friendly!

There is still too much emphasis on getting up to speed limits and getting from a-b quickly.
70 for example on a motorway or d/c will use substantially more fuel than a lower cruising speed.
A highly trained driver driving to IPSGA will use less fuel than your average driver granted.But it could be alot better.

Economy aside,

I have seen far too many drivers on fleet who have been very poorly trained on previous courses by ex-police drivers.The main problem speed and harsh acceleration, and even on many occasions its okay to go over speed limit in 30s and on the motorway to overtake safely!  Untrue you would think but too many clients saying the same.

im sure the vast majority of ex police would be horrified by this, but it does happen.








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#12 07-08-07 20:56:12

ExAdiNigel
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From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Id agree with most of the above but

The whole DSA or Roadcraft emphasis on progress is flawed and is not eco-friendly!

There is still too much emphasis on getting up to speed limits and getting from a-b quickly. .....

There does need to be some sort of balance between progress & the risk of causing road rage / anger in other drivers because you aren't getting up to speed.  Much of the Roadcraft 'progress' is aimed at use of acceleration & braking sense  ie looking ahead and keeping moving where possible, which is entirely consistent with eco.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#13 07-08-07 21:18:44

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
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Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Yeah agree fully Nigel

Nothing worse than slow drivers, doing 45 in a National  single for example.Causing real danger.

My real issue is with how most DSA and Rospa examiners mark  lack of progress when no other vehicles are about as if there were.
Or on a motorway or d/c when a slower more economical speed is fine where there are overtaking lanes.


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#14 07-08-07 22:34:55

kev elliott
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Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Hector - the examiners on the IAM expect you demonstrate how would drive as if you had to get to somewhere as quickly as possible while remaining within speed limits and maintaining safety this is percieved as being when most drivers will be  most at risk of making mistakes of judgement. I cannot speak for the other organisations- but this will have the effect that the economy aspect is secondary. Perhaps in time they will change this approach to include a segment where economical driving is more important than the making progress aspect. 

#15 08-08-07 05:38:00

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Therin lies the problem Kev,

Why must we get there as quickly as possible! Is this sending out the right message? To a newly qualified driver for example? We are not on an emergency call as the whole system is based on.

You overtake a doderer in a national, when they are doing 40, only for them to catch you up and tailgate you when you are doing 30 in a 30 and they are doing 40 still!

My wife falls into this catagory, if ever we are going somewhere in seperate cars with totally different driving styles-we nearly always arrive at the same time!

The whole system needs looking at and re-thinking.


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
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#16 08-08-07 10:38:07

kev elliott
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Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Hector, The point is that the examiner wants you to drive as if you need to get somewhere quickly -It does not mean that this is how you should drive all the time, with planning there is no need to. Not sure why you claim that Roadcraft is based on emergency driving as no mention of it is made as a driving technique. It is a systematic way of driving that introduces a way of thinking that moves away from being focused more on the control aspects of the DSA system to improving perceptual skills as the driver who undertakes this type of training hopefully has well developed car control skills.

On the subject of your situation where a dodder is driving  along at 40 in a national a question for you to ponder - What is more economical to overtake and travel at the optimum speed for your vehicles economy if safe, or to remain behind the dodder below the optimum speed for your vehicle? End of the day it is your choice but I know what I would do. The fact that the "my speed Charlie" does not vary their speed is another debate- how far should we vary our own driving from the ideal to accommodate the shall we say less than ideal drivers?

#17 08-08-07 11:15:31

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Agree with all the above but back to the original point of fuel economy.

Driving to rospa gold standard is not ideal for economy, i could easily shave 20% of the fuel consumption with more economical driving techniques.More acceleration = more fuel. If i had drove economically for my rospa gold i wouldnt have achieved it, same with Cardington or even a part 2, ecomony is not a priority.

The DSA are going completely the other way with use of gears and fuel economy, low speed high gears. 5th or 6th gear at 30 will save fuel? Imagine trying that on a rospa test!

To really save fuel on the recent SAFED programme, it was proved on many occassions that to improve fuel required much less acceleration. The odd very good van driver who already incorporated most eco-friendly techniques saw their fuel consumption improve by 15% by using less acceleration (If safe) between gears.

And we managed to persuade some it would make no difference time wise as the next traffic light or junction would still require them to stop, so there rapid progress between junctions was pointless.

The numbers trained on roadcraft  for the emergency services will always surely massively outwiegh members of the public training to this system. Hence my comment on emergency driving.

Dont get me wrong love roadcraft, better in every way than the DsA systems- but not in my book eco-friendly, the way examiners were trained (How can we get there quickest?) they wouldnt even consider it.

I have a collegue training with an ex iams examiner at the moment in prep for iams test- I cant believe how she is being trained regarding progress. Great for emergency response- but she isnt on emergency response!


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
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#18 08-08-07 19:00:46

chip
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Registered: 18-10-05
Posts: 45

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Hi NIgel I quite agree with you on all this .When I was doing some fleet work a few of the drivers were driving real fast and breaking most limits.When asked about this behaviour they informed me that on the last assessment the trainer ex cop told them to go faster than the limit as the variance is 10% above the prescribed limit therefore the chance of getting nicked was minimal.Is this the sort of message to tell already idiot company drivers?....I say take it easy and get there in one piece.

     One cannot teach this sort of emergency driving in half a day.A little knowledge may kill you.

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#19 08-08-07 19:10:48

kev elliott
Guest

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Chip, surely that is a training issue where incorrect training is being given. I can only speak for the local IAM examiner in Plymouth but will not tolerate any exceeding the speed limits - If he considers that someone has exceeded the speed limit he will fail them -taking into account parallax errors for the pendants smile


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#20 08-08-07 20:29:30

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,302

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Hi

taking into account parallax errors for the pendants smile

Just to be truly pedantic, that should read pedants. big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile

Sorry, just couldn't resist the temptation. big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile

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#21 08-08-07 20:46:13

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

I can only speak for the local IAM examiner in Plymouth but will not tolerate any exceeding the speed limits - If he considers that someone has exceeded the speed limit he will fail them -

Kev, it's the same with our examiner, if you go over the limit by 1 or 2 mph once he will let you off as long as you bring it down straight away, but if you do it again then it's a fail, and rightly so.

Giz wink

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#22 08-08-07 21:55:55

chip
Verified Member
Registered: 18-10-05
Posts: 45

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

I have never liked the term advanced...or Institute.The latter reminding me of Madness.The IAM . neutral

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#23 08-08-07 21:58:36

kev elliott
Guest

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

chip, tis a marketing tool the same as any other organisations name.

#24 16-08-07 19:14:22

ADI349
Verified Member
From: East Yorkshire
Registered: 24-01-05
Posts: 193

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

A lot of police drivers in years gone by went to police driving schools where the National Speed limit sign was referred to as GLF.  Yes there is an emphasis on speed during emergency response, however there is a growing number of police instructors that believe in 'you can get somewhere faster by going slower' that may sound daft but I assure you it works, by good planning and anticipation and giving the public time to react.  It will take many years to get rid of old habits.  Roadcraft is an Eco friendly way of driving it is not and should not for the foot down then brake hard brigade police emergency service or otherwise.  Most people seems to forget that one of the most important aspects of how people drive is down to attitude and is very much affected on the peer pressure. Roadcraft acknowledge this, read chapter one and get rid of the view that getting there as quickly as possible is what matters.  Personally I cringe when people say they were trained by ex police drivers (there are some good ones but in my expereince a lot of not so good).  I would much prefers them to say I have been trained by driving instructors who were also police trained drivers, the emphasis being on the instructor.


If you only do what you've always done, you will only achieve what you've always achieved

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#25 31-08-07 15:22:03

scooter552
Verified Member
Registered: 08-04-07
Posts: 39
Website

Re: ADVANCED DRIVING ??? BUT NO PROVISION FOR ECO?????

Just felt i needed to have my say.
I am a RoSpa Examiner and i would never allow anybody to exceed the speed limit.
In fact the only two drivers i have had to fail for their Rospa test were wait for it Driving Instructors one for exceeding the limit and going through a red light, and the other one for exceeding the limit and unable to reverse his car.
When i teach Advanced Driving the standard i am looking for is no where near what we used to do in the police. Its not a case of getting from A to B as quickly as you can, its about making good safe progress where you can, no emphasis on speed but on Safety.
As for eco driving as someone has already mentioned that driving to roadcraft does involve economy ie right gear for speed etc etc. There are a number of opinions re eco driving and one that falls into Roadcraft nicely is that brisk acceleration and therefore moving up the gears more promptly means that the engine is sooner being used at its optimum range and therefore saves fuel.

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