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#51 13-03-07 16:57:52

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Speed cameras

YAWN!  Here we go again!

People don't object to the idea of speed cameras, if they are for road safety. Unfortunately, they are NOT for road safety. All they serve to do is satisfy Gordon Brown, and the Uk road statistics.

Goodness me, what sort of sexual persuasion must poor old Gordon suffer to find satisfaction from a speed camera?

Roid wrote:

SPEED KILLS! they say, but press them on their definition of "speeding" and they say "it's exceeding the speed limit". But surely it is driving at a speed too fast for the conditions that kills?

Speed doesn't kill, poor driving does.

Speed Kills, is an over simplification, it is how quickly you stop that kills!

Speed does, however, play its part in how serious an accident is and how badly people are hurt!

Roid wrote:

People don't like them because they have no discretion; EVERYBODY caught doing 10% + 2mph or more ove the speed limit gets a ticket, no exceptions! To a certain extent I agree with this in built up areas in day time, but in the middle of the night?

No discretion?  what's the 10% + 2 then?  It's showing some discretion!  Anyway, why shouldn't everyone be done for breaking the law?  Do you really think the law should only apply to some people?

Roid wrote:

The system really started to take the bleep, though, when they started prosecuting people for 68mph in NSL Single Carriageway, and 79mph on the motorway. NOBODY can claim that this helps road safety. Everywhere else in Europe, the limit on motorways is 80mph.

Who cares what the speed limit the rest of Europe have on their Motorways?  We have one of the best road safety records in the world - why risk spoiling it?

Roid wrote:

This is taking responsibility away from drivers and dumbing them down. Why is the number on a stick always the only safe speed? Surely the speed should be set based on conditions?

and how do you propose to implement that?  Not only would the speed depend on the conditions, but also on the type of car and on the driver's experience and the experience of the other drivers around at the time!

Roid wrote:

People used to moan about traffic police "harrassing" the motorist. As a result we have replaced the vast majority of traffpol with automatic money-printing machines. As soon as the government realised just how easy it was to take money from people, there was no going back. When you are in a position to set the enforcement goalposts as you see fit, there's really no losing.

We now have a situation where people are being told "you're only a safe driver if you don't exceed the speed limit". I think I'll end with a quote from the Gloucestershire Safety Camera Partnership..... "No driver can make a judgement about any road that is more sound than the speed limit set" Nuff said neutral

If you actually think about the statement, it is probably correct.  Just because a road has no other traffic on it at a particular time and you think it may be 'safe' to exceed the speed limit, does that make your decision more 'sound' than the, lower, speed limit?

Remember, EVERY person caught speeding is volunteering to donate money to the authority's coffers!  It's as simple as that!  For that reason, the speed cameras are NOT money printing machines!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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13-03-07 16:57:52

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Re: Speed cameras



#52 13-03-07 17:27:02

pj
Verified Member
From: surrey
Registered: 27-02-05
Posts: 1,794

Re: Speed cameras

Nigel you forgot to mention you are more likely to be involved in an accident between the hours of 7pm - 7am than the other way round, We have the safest motorways in Europe even beating Sweden who used to be top of the league, could it be our 70mph spped limit is the factor in this, we are however one of the worst countries in Europe when it comes to killing children, predominately through speeding :x

Roid you say you are training to become a special constable, perhaps you should ask to go on a speed awareness course, you may actually learn something, speed doesn't kill , it's the not being able to stop in time coz you are speeding that does.


PJ Dip DI

if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.

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#53 13-03-07 18:32:58

kev elliott
Guest

Re: Speed cameras

Just to thow a spanner it the works, did anybody see the programme on speed cameras earlier this week on ITV1 i think.

The basis of the programme was that a particular model of hand held speed camera is inherently inaccurate.

If the laser beam is not kept on the registration plate then flase readings can routinely obtained.

When the laser is reflected off of a surface that is not vertical for example a bonnet, then it impossible for the beam to be held in the same place which results in higher speeds being recorded.

On some tests they found that the speed of a stationary car could be as high as 8mph

On moving test with a calibrated speedo i belive , cars that never went over 30mph were recorded as travelling at 40mph

I did not catch where but some countries limit the range that these mobile guns can be used to 1000ft and not in rain or snow. Currently the UK mainland has no such restrictions, typically the ranges used are in excess of 3000ft were claimed.

Does make you think. 

#54 13-03-07 19:06:50

copone
Verified Member
From: Co. Durham
Registered: 03-07-05
Posts: 89

Re: Speed cameras

In relation to speed cameras, TRY and tell the parent of a child that their child has been killed by a motorist who was doing 36mph on a restricted road. If someone is training to be a special constable, may well be a good idea to keep quiet until they have scraped bodies off the road, and dealing with the accident from start to finish, then they will probably realise that the vehicle they are driving is a lethal weapon and not a toy. Sit back and learn.


ADI. Class 1 Police Advanced. HGV Class 1. Member of IAM AND DIA. Rospa Gold. National Diploma for Advanced Instruction. and Examiner. IAM fleet trainer. Safed trainer.

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#55 13-03-07 20:25:46

Roid
Member
Registered: 12-03-07
Posts: 9

Re: Speed cameras

Hi All

I'm well aware that the speed camera debate has been done to death on so many forums. Obviously from my background I am a backer of road safety, but the tools we have to achieve it in this day and age are completely useless. So many "ordinary" drivers, who have driven quite safely for many years, are losing their licences for "peripheral" speeding offences, IE creeping up whilst they take their eye off the speedo for a few moments.

Sorry to anybody who got the wrong impression.

Copone: I appreciate your point, and also the amount of appalling sights you must have seen on the road. However my gripe is not with the ENFORCEMENT of speed limits, more with the enforcement POLICY.

:oops:

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#56 13-03-07 20:49:44

la.monikita
Verified Member
From: SE LONDON / KENT
Registered: 12-03-05
Posts: 3,064

Re: Speed cameras


"What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself."
Abraham Maslow

21st Century Women http://www.loisontheloose.com/my-advent … /the-team/

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#57 13-03-07 20:59:01

pj
Verified Member
From: surrey
Registered: 27-02-05
Posts: 1,794

Re: Speed cameras

Roid the simple fact is if you are speeding you are breaking the law, we are trying to educate people into realising that speeding is just as sociably unacceptable as drink driving is.
[IMG]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c331/pj852/100_0328.jpg[/img]

My daughter was hit by someone speeding , she was on of the lucky ones, I'm sure you will get to see some not so lucky victims. I would have cameras on every lamp-post if I had my way.


PJ Dip DI

if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.

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#58 13-03-07 22:01:34

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Speed cameras

Hi All

I'm well aware that the speed camera debate has been done to death on so many forums. Obviously from my background I am a backer of road safety, but the tools we have to achieve it in this day and age are completely useless. So many "ordinary" drivers, who have driven quite safely for many years, are losing their licences for "peripheral" speeding offences, IE creeping up whilst they take their eye off the speedo for a few moments.

and?  Is that type of speeding any safer than any other then?   

If a driver is not noticing the speed slowly increasing, what else aren't they noticing?  They have the control - if they CHOOSE to exert that control.  If they CHOOSE not to exercise that control then they are simply volunteering to have some money taken from their pockets and I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it!

In fact, I would auggest that the driver not noticing an increase in their speed (which is due to a lack of concentration!) is more dangerous than the driver who is making a concious decision to break the speed limit.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#59 13-03-07 22:34:55

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Speed cameras

Roid, I understand your points, and surprisingly enough I agree with them, esp:

Speed doesn't kill, poor driving does.

This is taking responsibility away from drivers and dumbing them down. Why is the number on a stick always the only safe speed? Surely the speed should be set based on conditions?

However, this presupposes that drivers are capable of assessing the risks on the road properly, deciding on appropriate speed at which to drive, and above all acting upon these.

Unfortunately I only know 5 or 6 drivers who do this at all times. The rest are sorely lacking in these areas, and more worryingly among those who are lacking I would count friends who are fully qualified ADIs, PDIs, police drivers, racing trainers, off road trainers and rally trainers.

If these guys cannot do this, then how in heavens name can we expect the general(ly pretty bad) public to be able to do this, and to do it all the time. Limits need to be set, and they need to be enforced. Speed cameras are no longer put in places where they will catch speeders, they are now put in places where speed has been proven to be a cause in a serious road accident. Now we can argue about statistics and how they decide whether speed was a factor, but what we cannot argue about is the fact that charity boxes do not steel £20 notes out of your pocket each time they pass them.

If a driver cannot control their speed then they deserve to get points, and a fine. It really isn't that hard.

I long for the day when the state of driving is good enough to be able to say they are no longer needed - that day will come when people are no longer caught, and I think I can say that we are all working to that end.

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#60 14-03-07 19:20:01

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Speed cameras

Roid really good about driving at night!! Yeah it doesnt matter then speeding is acceptable


Just the time when the idiots are falling into the road drunk, driving drunk,driving drugged, driving with the safe couple of pints etc etc.

even safer and more acceptable in the early hrs the roads are empty-just the paper boys and girls,people leaving nightclubs,the p issed up drivers still well over the limit from the night before etc etc.


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#61 14-03-07 19:29:09

Roid
Member
Registered: 12-03-07
Posts: 9

Re: Speed cameras

Surely SOMEBODY must see what I'm getting at? :? Or Am I going mad?


Hector, appreciate your point about drunks falling in the road etc, but this is happening in a busy town centre, where a careful and observant driver would be killing their speed anyway.

If I drive down a NSL dual carriageway at 2am at 79mph, are you saying then that I am just as dangerous as somebody who drives past a school at kicking out time at 40mph?

My point from the outset has been that whilst speed limits clearly need to be enforced, there is no room for discretion in the current enforcement climate. The system even goes as far as to ticket people who edge through red lights to allow emergency vehicles to pass.

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#62 14-03-07 19:42:50

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Speed cameras

Roid i know what your saying but i cant remember ever seeing many careful and considerate drivers!

the vast majority think speed limits are to be ignored at night,people who speed drive at an innappropiate speed also,they just cant help it. They dont know they are doing it.

I would have agreed with you 100% 8 years ago before becoming an instructor though,this is what we should be educating the uneducated in.


I know several drunks who walk down unlit dual carriegways to get home in dark clothing. I know two elderly ones locally who did it after leaving the pub recently on a 50 mph dual carriegway, they didnt get to the other side as the driver was doing 65,mowed them down and didnt even brake,after all it was 11.15 at night when its safe to speed.


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#63 14-03-07 19:51:48

Roid
Member
Registered: 12-03-07
Posts: 9

Re: Speed cameras

There are hundreds of cases I'm sure which people can put down to excess speed, but it is true though that the number painted on a sign does not always represent the maximum safe speed. It is this system which makes drivers feel they are being "dumbed down" and which causes the animosity towards speed cameras.

In terms of my own driving, the "Red Circle" speed limits are sacrosanct in my book and never exceeded, I am just slightly more "flexible" in the NSL, dependent of course on conditions.

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#64 14-03-07 19:52:43

hector
Verified Member
From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
Website

Re: Speed cameras

Roid i dont know if your an ADI it doesnt say in your name badge,
i agree if you are youd probably do it reasonably safely as your training would set you way above mr average, but even then that extra 9 mph takes longer to stop if it goes t its up, and that could be life or death for someone.

Excactly what you say is right about the public being alianated by cameras on national speed limit d/c s.
They often dont work for the simple reason the vast majority of speeders on these roads know they are there- slow down then can it afterwards, increasing or moving the danger elesewhere. They only work if sited correctly-for example on approach to the dangerous junction-there needs to be many of them to do this effectively.

This is where the camera vans come in and the changes in April will make a big difference,regarding siting and funding.


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
Johnny boy United 20 its coming son

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#65 14-03-07 20:23:45

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Speed cameras

....I am just slightly more "flexible" in the NSL, dependent of course on conditions.

It is this attitude amongst some of the biking community that appears to be responsible for an increase in deaths!  Just don't come on here bleating if it goes wrong and you, at best, get a speeding ticket or, at worst, you kill someone!

One of the big problems on the road are those that think they are better than everyone else on the road and that the sped limits shouldn't apply to them, 'cos they are such good drivers'!

Yeah! right!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#66 14-03-07 20:26:14

la.monikita
Verified Member
From: SE LONDON / KENT
Registered: 12-03-05
Posts: 3,064

Re: Speed cameras

my question to Roid;

How old are you?


"What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself."
Abraham Maslow

21st Century Women http://www.loisontheloose.com/my-advent … /the-team/

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#67 14-03-07 20:35:05

Roid
Member
Registered: 12-03-07
Posts: 9

Re: Speed cameras

As old as my tongue, and a little older than my teeth 8-)

I'm 20. I know, my naivety shows, before anyone says it.  big_smile

I'm a member of a RoSPA Group and have a vested interest in all things driving.

This doesn't mean that I consider myself superior in any way. Quite the opposite. I am a student of my art and I constantly strive to improve.

If I ever got caught speeding in NSL I'd accept the penalty without question. My licence = My responsibility

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#68 14-03-07 20:40:29

copone
Verified Member
From: Co. Durham
Registered: 03-07-05
Posts: 89

Re: Speed cameras

Maximuim speed limit signs. Remember this is not  target. I bet Roid wished he never mentioned anything in the first place. Certainly a good discussion


ADI. Class 1 Police Advanced. HGV Class 1. Member of IAM AND DIA. Rospa Gold. National Diploma for Advanced Instruction. and Examiner. IAM fleet trainer. Safed trainer.

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