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#51 07-06-10 22:33:47

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

I am sure you all know that phase one of the system is Information and part of that information is signal if required,if at the time you say no one will benefit then dont signal,if at phase 3 or 4 the need to signal arises then a re assessment is done and a signal is given,this is due to the system being flexible and covers every eventuality.

If you want to signal roboticaly whether it is required or not then feel free,it all boils down to how good a driver you are/want to be I supose you can air on the side of safety all the time and just signal whether its required or not.

I will agree on the fact that some observers just repeat this information based on the fact that they were told this and when asked/challenged to explain they cant because they dont know themselves,the difference between a bad observer and a bad instructor is one gets paid and the other doesnt !!!.
Stephen

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07-06-10 22:33:47

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Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts




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#52 07-06-10 22:46:51

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,303

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Hi

but by saying that if you feel someone would benefit that means that turning left into a blind junction with no one around you would not signal! however it is a blind junction so how do you know that a car will not come up to turn left out of it and then be forced to stop when they didnt need to because you hadnt signalled

Well; if I was the driver arriving at this "blind corner" wanting to emerge left out of it, I would still wait to check you were turning before I committed to emerging.
Your speed on approach would give me info as to the sorts of actions you might be going to take, so I would be able to make a decision as to whether to prepare to emerge, and I could then act onn that decision as soon as you made the turn in(subject to there being no following vehicles).
So what difference has your signal, or lack of it made to me?

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#53 08-06-10 09:28:04

jonnmedds
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 154

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

For me the idea of signalling only if beneficial is to promote effective observations, the information phase runs throughout the whole system and is to constantly re-evaluated, so if you didn't signal at first and the information changes then you may reconsider that signal is now necessary. Basically it keeps you thinking.

Many drivers say, well why not just put a signal on, just in case. You'll find those are the drivers who just signal and then forget, often with no further mirror checks and are often not re-evaluating the situation.

The example the OP gave, turning into a blind junction. Who says who shouldn't signal in that instance, I know i might. As was said, it's blind. Likewise if the junction is comletely open and there's no one around, what the point of indicating.

The advanced students I train often say that driving in this ways DOES improved their observations.

Just my opinion, don't shoot the messenger.

Jon

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#54 08-06-10 10:59:01

peakdrivertraining
Member
Registered: 06-06-10
Posts: 17
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

''The example the OP gave, turning into a blind junction. Who says who shouldn't signal in that instance, I know i might. As was said, it's blind. Likewise if the junction is comletely open and there's no one around, what the point of indicating.''

in this example if blind then a signal is probably a safe idea incase as i said if completly! open then i agree no signal would be required.

the point i am making is that many IAM observers in particular take the idea of not signalling if they cant see it and apply it to every situation, therefore the actual principle of increased observations is very good but the way that it is put into action by many means that instead of robotically signalling they robotically dont singal

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#55 08-06-10 14:55:18

jonnmedds
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 154

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

the point i am making is that many IAM observers in particular take the idea of not signalling if they cant see it and apply it to every situation, therefore the actual principle of increased observations is very good but the way that it is put into action by many means that instead of robotically signalling they robotically dont singal

I may get shot here yikes but, I do agree with what you've said. One of the problems with some Observers, note I said some, not all. Some stick to advanced principles to the latter. Signalling, or lack of, is one of them. Positioning for bends is another. Straightlining roundabouts is another. I could go on!!
The idea of the system is that it's supposed to be flexible, each situation is different and the system should suit the individual situation. One size does not fit all when it comes to driving.

Jon

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#56 08-06-10 15:08:17

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

jon,I dont get what you mean with all the examples you mention these are examples of advanced driving and if they are done in accordance with Roadcraft or the IAM book Advanced driving and do not impede or endanger any one then they are fine.

Life is not all black and white and like observers there are different standards of experience,like it or not but this is being addressed by IAM and hopefully within a short period of time we should be seeing a base standard that must be achieved before they can become and observer,which will hopefully elliminate this poor advice.
Stephen

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#57 08-06-10 17:54:34

jonnmedds
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 154

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

jon,I dont get what you mean with all the examples you mention these are examples of advanced driving and if they are done in accordance with Roadcraft or the IAM book Advanced driving and do not impede or endanger any one then they are fine.
Stephen

What I mean with the examples is that quite often Advanced principles are taught but trainees are not taught to be flexible with them.
e.g. -Left bends, Drivers position close to the crown even in the face of oncomming vehicles.
      -Right bends, drivers positioning close to the nearside with a driver waiting in a junction to the left.
      -Straightlining roundabouts with no consideration for the driver approaching from the left.

Yes they are all advanced principles and used correctly are very good but quite often I and Examiners from RoSPA and IAM see trainees that are taught these priciples to the latter but are not taught when it would be unsafe to apply them.


Jon
       

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#58 08-06-10 20:31:22

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

....the point i am making is that many IAM observers in particular take the idea of not signalling if they cant see it and apply it to every situation, therefore the actual principle of increased observations is very good but the way that it is put into action by many means that instead of robotically signalling they robotically dont singal

Just as a matter of interest, how many IAM observers have you been out for a drive with?  With advanced driving there should be nothing robotic.

Stephen7738 wrote:

jon,I dont get what you mean with all the examples you mention these are examples of advanced driving and if they are done in accordance with Roadcraft or the IAM book Advanced driving and do not impede or endanger any one then they are fine.
Stephen

What I mean with the examples is that quite often Advanced principles are taught but trainees are not taught to be flexible with them.
e.g. -Left bends, Drivers position close to the crown even in the face of oncomming vehicles.
      -Right bends, drivers positioning close to the nearside with a driver waiting in a junction to the left.
      -Straightlining roundabouts with no consideration for the driver approaching from the left.

Yes they are all advanced principles and used correctly are very good but quite often I and Examiners from RoSPA and IAM see trainees that are taught these priciples to the latter but are not taught when it would be unsafe to apply them.


Jon

Well that's different to my experience.  Is this common to any particular area?  Perhaps there is a group or two that are in need of some training?  The 'Use' part of the Information phase isn't being applied properly in teh cases you mention.

By the way, straightening a roundabout should actually help vehicles approaching from the left!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#59 09-06-10 06:00:59

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Hi Nigel.
I think we have only to consider some of the questions fielded to Chris Gilbert from some of the audience at the meeting we attended to appreciate that some observers place emphasis on driving practices rather than the principles behind IPSGA.

To others.
Just for clarity on crossing white lines on bends. (mentioned early in the thread)
Roadcraft and the "Advanced" driving organisation hiarchy (at least publically) do not advocate the crossing of the centre of the road as a matter of expected driving line through bends. Nor does it say that the driver should always position towards the crown for left bends. Any positioning adjustments should only be made if the driver knows it is safe to use that driving line.

IMHO If that driving line has been adopted but oncoming traffic comes into view, a reconsideration of driving line should be made. I believe this is in accordance with Roadcraft, however not all observers differenciate. Some encourage the driving line for optimal vision/stability, even in the face of oncoming traffic.


IMHO, it would be inapropriate for an observer to be advising the blanket principle of "if no one is there, don't signal".
That is not what Roadcraft says, nor what it is intended to be intrpreted as saying.

As has been said by others on the thread, The System (IPSGA) allows for no signal, but that's not the same as saying DON'T signal.

Roadcraft differs from Essential Skills in this respect. Although the underlying principle is contained in both systems.

The DSA  do accept no signals for certain driving scenarios. The critiria is the same for DSA and Roadcraft.

Signals should not mislead
Signal if it will inform or assist another road user.

However, where there is a difference is that DSA advocate signaling for junctions, including RA's.

Roadcraft advocates the above critiria for all situations including junctions.

If a driver does not KNOW wether a roaduser is nearby or not (e.g. pedestrian wanting to cross the road at a junction but hidden from view of the driver), then is it not appropriate for the driver to signal ?

Roadcraft does not say "If you cannot see another roaduser, don't signal".

It is true that some observers do get bogged down with method rather than considering the underlying principles. I don't think I am out of place by also saying some testers can make errors in judgement regarding this issue too.

Kev.

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#60 09-06-10 06:40:53

hoylake
Verified Member
From: Heysham
Registered: 21-09-07
Posts: 1,435
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

By the way, straightening a roundabout should actually help vehicles approaching from the left!

Nigel


How?

In the real world, with avarage drivers.
Could it not mislead by position close to the island? Car approaching from left assumes [never assume big_smile] that the car to his right is taking an exit further around RAB, and enters RAB. Could they not potentially have a collision/near miss?




http://www.sophiesdrivinglancaster.co.uk
Adi & Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Gold

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#61 09-06-10 14:41:27

jonnmedds
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 154

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

adiNigel wrote:

By the way, straightening a roundabout should actually help vehicles approaching from the left!

Nigel


How?

In the real world, with avarage drivers.
Could it not mislead by position close to the island? Car approaching from left assumes [never assume big_smile] that the car to his right is taking an exit further around RAB, and enters RAB. Could they not potentially have a collision/near miss?

Thank you, I totally agree, moving the vshicle to the centre of the roundabout could be an open invitaion for vehicles from the left to enter.


Jon

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#62 11-06-10 05:09:22

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

adiNigel wrote:

By the way, straightening a roundabout should actually help vehicles approaching from the left!

Nigel


How?

In the real world, with avarage drivers.
Could it not mislead by position close to the island? Car approaching from left assumes [never assume big_smile] that the car to his right is taking an exit further around RAB, and enters RAB. Could they not potentially have a collision/near miss?

Because trying to keep too far over to the left when going straight on can mislead cars joining from the left into thinking you are going left despite the fact you aren't signalling left!  I've had it happen on assessment drives!

A lot depends on the individual situation.  If you straighten a roundabout and it confuses anyone then it wasn't particularly advanced.

Surely, if a car enters from your left it would because he thought you were turning left rather than going round to a later exit?

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#63 20-06-10 19:55:16

robinsamuels
Verified Member
From: Milford Haven, Pembrokeshire,
Registered: 09-03-08
Posts: 425
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Just for clarity on crossing white lines on bends. (mentioned early in the thread)
Roadcraft and the "Advanced" driving organisation hiarchy (at least publically) do not advocate the crossing of the centre of the road as a matter of expected driving line through bends. Nor does it say that the driver should always position towards the crown for left bends. Any positioning adjustments should only be made if the driver knows it is safe to use that driving line.

I've watched students from the Hampshire police traffic course enter a sweepy left hand bend, in a national limit single carriageway, almost on the far right grass, at what I would estimate to be well over 100mph. I'm confident of my estimate of their speed as the cars went past us while we were doing 60 and I did a quick time over distance count to estimate their speed and they covered the patch of road roughly twice as fast as we did.

My pupils were shocked, but I explained to them that at the speeds they were doing, they needed every little increase in observation that they could give themselves. We could see roughly 200m, so I would guess that by going to the far right that they bought themselves another 100m of view.

Would that be acceptable positioning on an IAM test? Of course not, nor on any other AD test that I can think of. But, at the level of training they were receiving, plus with blues and twos, they were perfectly safe under the circumstances.

The point I am trying to make, albeit in a convoluted way, is that what may be said in one situation may be totally reckless in another. It doesn't matter if you are talking about signals, road positioning or anything else that you may want to highlight on an observed drive.


When it gets to the stage of sadobestionecrophilia, give up: Otherwise known as flogging a dead horse!

http://www.robinsdriving.co.uk

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#64 20-06-10 21:02:09

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

....Would that be acceptable positioning on an IAM test? Of course not, nor on any other AD test that I can think of.....

IAM or RoSPA wouldn't encourage this extreme of positioning, but may not mark it down either if it is used to good effect with no adverse effect on other road users.  HPC may expect it on their training & tests. 

I went out for a driving day with some members on the ADUK forum and was paired with a couple of drivers who are HPC members.  Their positioning was more extreme than I am used to and felt odd at first - though not unsafe.  Did feel that hanging out to the right so far looking for the overtake opportunity after the left hand bend could have intimidated the driver of the car we were looking to get past though!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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