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#26 08-12-04 08:13:55

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

the  fact that the vehicle is also slowing to deal with the junction would show me that the intention was to turn so instead of having to stop at the give way due to no signal i could proceed with caution so making better progress. Are you saying that youd stop every time until the car actually starts to turn ?? With proper observation and anticiaption that shouldnt be neccesary .


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08-12-04 08:13:55

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Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts



#27 08-12-04 09:38:42

Graham
Guest

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

TDC.  That's exactly what I'm saying. Observation is one thing, anticipation is another. How can you anticipate what a driver is going to do, with enough certainty, to pull out in front of him at a junction. You have to see more than just 'slowing down'. I'm new to this forum as you can see, so I don't know what your background is, but if you are an ADI, I find your perspective on this quite scary.  Surely you wouldn't teach this approach to learners. No pun intended! Nor would I hope to meet you in a decision making situation on the road!  I'd be happy to share this topic over a pint though!  Could you tell me what advanced training you've had to arrive at this viewpoint. Over to you............

#28 08-12-04 12:43:20

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Once again a question is posted which is very clear as what it is asking,and once again it is way off topic with different scenario's being thrown in to justify an attack on the way Advanced driving is set out. The ADI's on this forum who are Advanced trained with either IAM or Rospa appreciate that there is another of level to attain your driving to and can see the benefit's it holds for each individual. The one's who just bleet on about how bad Advanced driving is about the theory and principles of car control then i can only assume that they have never managed to take any of these higher levels of driver training,and i am not talking about Cardington etc. There is a poll on this site about "Have you done it" asking people have they taken an Advanced test and looking at the posting's it is a very small number of ADI's etc that have said they have,so dont knock it until you have tried it,stick to question on hand as there will never be a 100% right answer to your scenario unless the individual's were actually there to witness it taking place but we can all put our point of view across,and that is based on the experience and training in the field of Advanced driving from the driver's seat.
                                                                    Stephen

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#29 08-12-04 13:05:14

Graham
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Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Well said Stephen. I agree entirely.

#30 08-12-04 15:18:03

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

so in that case Graham you would be stuck at rnbts for a long long time if you didnt trust any signal until that vehicle had actually started turning off the rnbt and similarly with a number of junctions certainly in busier areas.
My anticipation skills are fine and ive never had a problem doing things this way and will continue to do so,  how you drive is up to you and i respect that.

However nobody has ,surprise surprise, actually answered my query regarding that possible scenario so i will wait with baited breath (yawn)


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#31 09-12-04 12:38:37

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

TDC,
         I can appreciate what you say as far as slowing down is concerned,but,try this one what if the driver  had forgot to cancel signal and the slowing down was in fact that he had identified you at the junction and he got the impression from you that you were going to emerge,you proceed collision occcurs who's fault. Now who's changing the scenario could go on foreverwith the if's and but's,takes me back to my last quote about 100% and changing scenario's.
                                               Stephen

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#32 09-12-04 13:57:27

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

one wouldnt proceed if the other driver didnt continue to reduce speed and show definite signs of turning, but at least one would be able to plan to proceed, however if there was no indication at all one would have no option but to slow even more than would be necesary with an indication showing.
As i said previously you have to respect that people drive in different ways to you, it has served me well and im confident it will continue to do so as im sure your way of driving serves you well


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#33 09-12-04 22:00:26

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Right I think I will have to agree to disagree with you on this as Im starting to get dissy now going round and round in circle's. Everytime someone puts a post on Advanced driving we go through the whole process of condeming the whole Advanced driving principles and techniques.
                     Stephen

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#34 09-12-04 23:46:19

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

You know something when I was doing my sessions with the police trainers one of them had a very low opinion of ADIs.  In his eyes we were in the same league as taxi drivers  :cry:   (NO offence to taxi drivers...his opinion not mine.   :?

I was a bit upself he was tarnishing us with the same brush - in all professions there are good and bad.  I don't regard myself as in any way the best, I've only been in the job 2 years and accept there's always more to learn, however I also don't regard myself by any means the worst!

But if he ever got to find this forum and was to read some of the posts he'd be even more convinced he was right.   At times it looks like we don't know our gearsticks from our handbrakes!!

Oh I'm  :oops: for us at times.

Lynne

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#35 10-12-04 00:09:00

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Lynne,
             I wonder where they get that idea from it's like in my job as you have heard the expression one bad apple and everyone thinks that the whole barrell is rotten. As for taxi driver's ther standard's are consitant wherever you go.You just have to look at some of the replies to know who are the forward thinkers and who are the dinosaurs.
                                                                                  Stephen

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#36 10-12-04 06:17:46

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

What would help is if people did not bite every time the bad apples made a posting.

These deliberately off-topic and provocative postings are easy to spot - ignore them and remain on-topic.


Learn 2 Pass
Driving lessons in and around Ceredigion in West Wales  http://www.L2P.co.uk

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#37 10-12-04 09:02:58

Graham
Guest

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

I would think this has run long enough!  TDC, you say 'suprise surprise, no-one has answered my question on this'.   In fact, several people have taken time and effort to give their viewpoint on this and with good reasoning. (That's what messageboards are for).  But  just because you haven't had anyone agree with your views, you can't say that no-one has answered it!  By the way way, I asked you what advanced training you have done to arrive at your viewpoint. You haven't given us an answer! The silence is deafening!

#38 10-12-04 10:44:36

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

first of all i am in no way rubbishing advanced driving ,
i merely put a hypothetical situation question in to see what the advice would be regarding the signalling. Instead of giving advice on that (which is what this thread is about!!!!!!!)  certain people decided to query my 'decision' to proceed with caution . The decision by the other driver not to signal is strangely overlooked yet this is what the original posting and thread is about and indeed is what my posting was querying.
So please dont accuse me of going off topic or of rubbishing advanced driving,  if my posts seemed that way to some i will apologise here and now as that is not my view, i simply cannot agree with the indication thing.  it seems to overcomplicate what is , lets face it , a fairly simple thing to do .
Graham sorry for not replying to you , i have not done any advanced driving and i dont intend to as i am very happy with how i have driven for the last 17 years and although im sure an observer would pick up on some things i dont really care as im safe and competent and really enjoy driving just the way i do. However i totally respect others who do wish to follow the advanced route..


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#39 10-12-04 12:09:16

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

TDC wrote:

first of all i am in no way rubbishing advanced driving ,
i merely put a hypothetical situation question in to see what the advice would be regarding the signalling. Instead of giving advice on that (which is what this thread is about!!!!!!!)  certain people decided to query my 'decision' to proceed with caution . The decision by the other driver not to signal is strangely overlooked yet this is what the original posting and thread is about and indeed is what my posting was querying.
So please dont accuse me of going off topic or of rubbishing advanced driving,  if my posts seemed that way to some i will apologise here and now as that is not my view, i simply cannot agree with the indication thing.  it seems to overcomplicate what is , lets face it , a fairly simple thing to do .
Graham sorry for not replying to you , i have not done any advanced driving and i dont intend to as i am very happy with how i have driven for the last 17 years and although im sure an observer would pick up on some things i dont really care as im safe and competent and really enjoy driving just the way i do. However i totally respect others who do wish to follow the advanced route..

TDC please correct me if i'm wrong but didn't you ask at one point about doing Advanced Driving or was I dreaming it?( I know you asked about the fleet)
Thank you for saying you respect others who do wish to do Advanced Driving.

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#40 10-12-04 12:29:06

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

yeh i was interested in the fleet possibilities a while back,  hey im glad you remembered me mother   big_smile


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#41 10-12-04 12:32:33

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

TDC wrote:

yeh i was interested in the fleet possibilities a while back,  hey im glad you remembered me mother   big_smile

Hey come on Son can I ever forget you :shock: you should know I never forget wink  now stop picking on me wink  (joking) lol

Before anyone starts I am only joking TDC and I go back a long way,we don't always agree but hell that's life wink
The thing with advanced driving is we do know that not everyone agrees with it but it's what I have chosen to do and I'm proud of it.

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#42 14-12-04 21:58:49

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

TDC wrote:

have to agree with Cawood on this.
so what would happen if i was a 'non advanced (huh)' driver coming up to a give way wanting to turn right. i had a view thru some bushes/trees of the traffic approaching from the right and there was an IAM driver who was going to turn left into my road but they couldnt see me thru the bushes , i could see them as i knew the road/area well enought to know i could see thru there but they didnt. So their not signalling as 'no one' to benefit from it. As a result i have to slow to a stop as its not until i am at the give wway line that i come into their view and the signal goes on. But hey ive had to stop now instead of being able to proceed making better progress.
And im sorry but thats called 'advance driving'   HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hmmm, interesting.  So you would have pulled out just because you could see a car signalling?  I certainly wouldn't until that car made a comitment to turning.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#43 15-12-04 08:35:36

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

another posting skirting the real issue of the thread???
If i saw an indication i would be preparing to proceed with caution once i was sure the other driver was turning,  however as in this scenario i wouldnt see an indication soon enough i would then be preparing to stop or slow more than neccesary so i have been caused inconvenience by someone else not indicating.   I do believe that was the main topic of the thread querying indication or not  my scenario was simply to point out that it is not always that easy to tell if an indication is required and it can and will inconvenience others unnecesarily which in my opinion is very good for advanced driving technique.  please read all the posts on the thread before replying  as im fed up of repeating myself now. 
its called anticipation and providing the vehicle and driver is showing all the signs of being about to turn you can then plan to proceed, or at least i would and ive not had a problem with it ever,  as i said before (yawn) how others drive is up to them and i respect their choices


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#44 09-11-08 20:45:40

David1108
Member
Registered: 09-11-08
Posts: 27

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

The highway code on apporoach to roundabouts does say signal but its not law as it not saying "must" or "must not"  Now to turn left at any roundabout when there is no one there then what driver or person is going to see it anyway.  In Advanced driving we don't signal if there is no one around, but if there is say cars or people then yes do signal.  I'm now doing a observers course so if I am doing wrong and I'm not so far then I will know.  So I can say like others don't signal unless there is a person or car that needs to know what way you are going.  David.

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#45 09-11-08 21:25:27

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

you're digging up some old threads aren't you David?


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#46 15-09-09 20:04:29

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Driving is not black and white so why do so many instructors try to make it so????Whatever system of driving that you use DSA or the Police system of car control it does not matter. Using a system gives the driver a simple and logical routine to follow by promoting good observation, anticipation and planning skills, it is the driver that needs to use the system thoughtfully and safely in response to the prevailing conditions.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#47 07-06-10 18:01:04

peakdrivertraining
Member
Registered: 06-06-10
Posts: 17
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

i know this will offend some but i went on a demonstration drive with an observer from the IAM and i am afraid to say he would have failed his learner test with 2 serious faults, he was explaining driving on country roads and said to get a better view around this next corner it is best to move out over the white line (rather blind corner) sorry who teaches this i had a student fail on this.

he also made several comments about signalling and being uneccessary i have two issues with this 1 pedestrians no matter how good a driver we are, we are not psychic how do we know that someone could run out of a house etc or hedge and just scan roundabout or junction for a signal and as there was noone there when we decided to come off we didnt signal ooer mistake and a fail for not anticipating
secondly why is signalling unnecessary why does it matter if a signal is given and noone sees it as long as it is a correct signal it cannot confuse anyone whether they are there or not!!!

so someone please explain to me why an unecessary signal is a problem?

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#48 07-06-10 19:28:18

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

An unnecessary signal is only really a problem if it is going to mislead another road user. However putting one on only when it is needed in my opinion promotes good observation (including mirrors), and planning skills. The down side of course is that assessment is not spot on then a signal may well have been needed and not used.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#49 07-06-10 19:34:43

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Always ask yourself a question before using a signal, who is it for? If you feel that potentially someone will benefit including pedestrians and you feel you could reasonably expect to come across someone that will benefit then use it, if not then don't, it will encourage you to be much more attentive and raise your situational awareness.

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#50 07-06-10 21:33:09

peakdrivertraining
Member
Registered: 06-06-10
Posts: 17
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

this is what i am getting at the guidance given by IAM observers on signals tends to be signal when someone will benefit from it but the point is that no one is psychic and can never know if anyone will benefit, i do agree that if there is clearly no one around such as on a straight open road where you are pulling into a very open layby no signal would be required.

but by saying that if you feel someone would benefit that means that turning left into a blind junction with no one around you would not signal! however it is a blind junction so how do you know that a car will not come up to turn left out of it and then be forced to stop when they didnt need to because you hadnt signalled

it just seems to me that IAM observers in particular take a rule of good advice and take it as a word to be followed at all times without forethought (like taking the bible as literal) so yes i agree it does teach good observation but observations need to be linked to clear reasoning and not be taken literally and need to be fluent for any situation not just reacting to what you can see driving is about being proactive not reactive

www.peakdrivertraining.co.uk

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