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#1 05-12-04 21:18:17

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

IAM and signalling at roundabouts

I had my second IAM observed drive today and I am a little concerned about a couple of times I was told I was signalling unnecessarily.

Once was on the approach to a roundabout going first exit left. I was told the left signal was unecessary because I could see there was nobody coming around the roundabout. I checked my higway code when I got back home and this advice contravenes rules 160 and 162.

The second was on returning to the car park I signalled left for the car park entry. Nobody was behind me but two cars were coming toward me in the other side of the road. Again I was told the signal was unnecessary.

Was my observer correct?


Learn 2 Pass
Driving lessons in and around Ceredigion in West Wales  http://www.L2P.co.uk

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05-12-04 21:18:17

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Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts



#2 05-12-04 21:36:08

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Hi Mr Bassman

If another road user would benefit from a signal then YES signal, I always say on Roundabouts Signal because obviously you cannot see around corners and cars do aproach R/bouts fast.
In the second part of your question regarding the oncoming cars,then again Yes signal to show your intention of turning left. I would ask your Observer to explain in more detail why he said you shouldn't signal.
Obviously I cannot comment on your Observer I wasn't there. Ask the Senior Observer to go into it with you in more detail that's what they are there for to help you understand.

Regards Gizmotime.

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#3 05-12-04 21:49:44

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Thanks gizmotime - next month I will try to find out who he/she is & have a chat.

I queried both points with my observer and he said that is what would be expected by my examiner, this was said in such a way as i felt it wasn't a topic for discussion.

There was an opportunity for a car coming fast around the roundabout but what I was more interested in was the fact that the HC is very clear about signalling on a roundabout. i.e. it does not say 'if necessary' it says in rule 160 'you should give an appropriate signal' and in 162 details the signals to give.

So what is the higher priority, following the HC or following the mantra 'signal if necessary'. i.e. if it were a very open roundabout with nobody in view for miles, should I signal?


Learn 2 Pass
Driving lessons in and around Ceredigion in West Wales  http://www.L2P.co.uk

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#4 05-12-04 22:03:10

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,963

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

MrBassMan wrote:

So what is the higher priority, following the HC or following the mantra 'signal if necessary'. i.e. if it were a very open roundabout with nobody in view for miles, should I signal?

Hiya MrBassman
The short answer to that is IF another road user would benefit from a signal then give one,so if there is NO one about at all Don't signal (this includes Padestrians) no need to tell you that sorry :oops:

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#5 05-12-04 22:05:21

Anonymous
Guest

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

this is the kind of problem that these so called advanced driving groups cause why or why dont they stick with the dsa and hc to base thier training and also they are breaking the law if money is changing hands no matter how small the amount. thats why they call them selfs observers. lets face facts its a job for adis to conduct theses courses.what happens if a observer causes a accident for giving wrong advice?


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#6 05-12-04 22:11:57

drivetime
Verified Member
From: North Kent
Registered: 01-03-04
Posts: 216
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Mr Bassman
                  I would say yes in both case's give a signal, unless it can CLEARLY be seen that a signal is not required.

Maybe a word with a Senior Observer would be in order, if the Observer you had today did not go into detail.
IAM Observers know the highway code back to front and round the right way again.

But the need for a signal is quite straight foward  in the cases you have mentioned, for the reasons Gizmotime has stated

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#7 05-12-04 22:45:14

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Mr.Bassman,
                     You are right on what you say about the HC and signals from the first scenario on the roundabout when told a signal was not necessary as no one around if that was the case then correct no signal ,if however once you have entred the roundabout and a road user comes into view and as such would require you to give a signal then the system is flexible enough for you to re assess the situation and give a signal if required. Scenario two turning left and told not too signal even though oncoming vehicles,could be wrong it would depend on the distance from you at the time prior to your turn being carried out only you knows that as said before the system is flexible but should be used with common sense and safety. If i may be as rude to say not all IAM observers know the roadcraft book as well as some of the older observer's especially since the IAM introduced their own watered down version of roadcraft book called P Y A D T (pass your advanced driving test). So as some have sugested get your observer to explain why no signal required and if necessary ask to give you examples,if not entirely convinced discuss with senior observer and if still not happy ask LEE.
hope this helps.
                              Stephen

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#8 05-12-04 22:50:15

drivetime
Verified Member
From: North Kent
Registered: 01-03-04
Posts: 216
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Lee
Nobody said anything about money changing hands .
And as for the highway code, this just shows what you know about Advanced driving. The Highway code is, as is Roardcraft , at the centre of the system of advanced driving.

this is the kind of problem that these so called advanced driving groups cause why or why dont they stick with the dsa and hc to base thier training and also they are breaking the law if money is changing hands no matter how small the amount. thats why they call them selfs observers. lets face facts its a job for adis to conduct theses courses.what happens if a observer causes a accident for giving wrong advice?

I find this as an ADI and a holder of the
RoADA (GOLD)
I.A.M
The DIAmond  Advanced test
The DIAmond special test
And others i doubt you have heard of, an insult.
The DSA standard is not everything.
You are supposidly an ADI and have given your input into so many posts here with a negative attitude. Maybe it is YOU who should rethink about what driving skills entail.

Sorry if this offends anybody else, or they think it s out of order.

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#9 05-12-04 22:56:31

Anonymous
Guest

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

mabe you mite have a point, but my view is a simple one, is one system for all and that will take away any confusion with over laping of difrent styles ,end of the day its about road safety and not about petty difrences i for one couldnt care less which system was followed .

#10 05-12-04 23:11:44

drivetime
Verified Member
From: North Kent
Registered: 01-03-04
Posts: 216
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Only one person is making personal differences here.

And as for different styles, well i would just say the DSA are not GOD.
If the Government should change hands next year you just might see the DSA and DVLA gone for good.
Replaced by a private firm, and who might that be ????? IAM +RoSPA maybe , you never know what would happen then.

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#11 05-12-04 23:36:48

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Lee,
        To listen to you it sounds like that when someone is taught how to drive by an ADI then they are taught to such a high standard that they don't have to take any further driver training,when in reality this is not true and most ADI's would agree with this,there is another standard after driving test and that is called Advanced you say,you are not bothered with different styles and standards of driving but you must be or you wouldn't keep posting your view's am i right.
                                                     Stephen

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#12 06-12-04 00:06:42

Anonymous
Guest

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

its all the confusion with difrent styles its just a shame that we dont have a uniformed system when it comes to advanced driving. why did the iam and rospa choose roadcraft over the dsa?


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#13 06-12-04 06:33:48

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Lee,

They chose Roadcraft because it's of a far higher standard than the DSA's  system. The DSA system is for learners.

Dave Hartley


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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#14 06-12-04 07:46:09

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Gizmotime wrote:
MrBassMan wrote:

So what is the higher priority, following the HC or following the mantra 'signal if necessary'. i.e. if it were a very open roundabout with nobody in view for miles, should I signal?

Hiya MrBassman
The short answer to that is IF another road user would benefit from a signal then give one,so if there is NO one about at all Don't signal (this includes Padestrians) no need to tell you that sorry :oops:

I am pointedly ignoring the off-topic discussion introduced by Lee - can others do the same please.

I am confused - the HC is clear, I should signal at roundabouts and others have said the HC is central to IAM (they even offered me a copy when I started). Yet you, and my observer are saying it is OK not to signal when I know nobody will benefit.

Saying do not signal makes common sence when I can see an open roundabout is clear, but breaking a rule in the HC does not make sence.

p.s.
I'm not trying to be awkward - I am genuinely confused about this, why is it OK to break a HC rule.


Learn 2 Pass
Driving lessons in and around Ceredigion in West Wales  http://www.L2P.co.uk

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#15 06-12-04 09:10:24

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

MrBassMan wrote:
Gizmotime wrote:
MrBassMan wrote:

I am pointedly ignoring the off-topic discussion introduced by Lee - can others do the same please.

I am confused - the HC is clear, I should signal at roundabouts and others have said the HC is central to IAM (they even offered me a copy when I started). Yet you, and my observer are saying it is OK not to signal when I know nobody will benefit.

Saying do not signal makes common sence when I can see an open roundabout is clear, but breaking a rule in the HC does not make sence.

p.s.
I'm not trying to be awkward - I am genuinely confused about this, why is it OK to break a HC rule.

errrmm  I believe that this is the point that Lee is trying to make tho he doesnt  make it as well as you? (please correct me if im wrong Lee and i apoligise if I am)
we have IAM saying dont signal yet the HC saying do and the IAM saying they use the HC as a guide.=  confusion as you have said yourself.
What i think Lee is saying is that confusion on the road = accidents (or at least could do) when if one method was followed (whichever method, IAM DSA ROSPA etc etc ) then we would all be doing the same thing = less confusion = fewer accidents


Im so good its unbelievable

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#16 06-12-04 10:37:01

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

TDC wrote:

errrmm  I believe that this is the point that Lee is trying to make tho he doesnt  make it as well as you? (please correct me if im wrong Lee and i apoligise if I am)

The topic was (and still is) IAM and signalling at roundabouts, not benefits/disadvantages of different systems or whether IAM should be paid or not.

Lee's comments may have some merit - he is welcome to start his own thread to discuss them, I simply asked that my thread was not hijacked.

Gizmotime has replied by PM - it is a shame this was necessary due to intimidation by certain people. Others will now have to guess at what the answer was  sad


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#17 06-12-04 23:25:51

cawood
Guest

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Interesting thread, this, and particularly because I have always disagreed with the IAM policy of not signalling if observation shows that, at the time a signal would be applied, no one would benefit. Now those words "at the time a signal would be applied" are vital.

On an interesting day some time ago I did a drive with an IAM observer ermmm....observing, and then we swapped over and I observed his driving. His only comment about my driving was that I sometimes signalled unnecessarily. During his drive, twice he had not applied a left indicator before a left turn into a side road, and had to hurriedly apply it late when a car appeared at the Give Way line.

He was non too happy when I pointed out that this would have caused him to fail the DSA learner test! The advice given by the IAM is, it encourages proper observation as to whether to show a signal or not, and that if a signal is always applied, it encourages lazy observation. I do not agree with this.

Incidently, RoadCraft was originally intended for the training of pursuit driving, and pursuit driving only. It was released by HMSO in the public domain because they have the right to do that if they want, with everything they publish, and the Police had not realised that. The Police were horrified, and Roadcraft was mellowed to what it is now, but it is still basically for Police Class I training. We were told this during training to be examiners, and I have no reason to doubt it.

So back to the topic, I believe in signalling for about 95% of intended actions. The only ones that escape are where I am absolutely certain no one can, or will benefit.

cawood.

#18 07-12-04 02:17:58

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Cawood,
               You mention that whilst out with an observer he didn't signal to turn left due to what I can gather it was clear ie no one about to benefit from signal but,had to hurry to signal when car approached  give way then that is fine as the system is flexible and can be re assessed at any time during the planning stage,cant answer why he had to apply it hurriedly.
As for Roadcraft it was forpolice driving in general not for pursuit work only,yes you are right when you say that the IAM and Rospa adapted it and watered it down to adapt a way of driving for civilians,but should still be taught to a high standard but isn't in a lot of cases within groups. You cant possibly compare this standard of driving to DSA standard,once you pass your test this is the next step and should not be even trying to compare differences or standards.
                                                Stephen

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#19 07-12-04 07:45:39

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

The advice given by the IAM is, it encourages proper observation as to whether to show a signal or not, and that if a signal is always applied, it encourages lazy observation. I do not agree with this.

Well said Cawood. The problem is that if this theory is wrong - it pulls down a house of cards for the Roadcraft system. The assumption is that you will only look properly if you are looking to see if a signal is needed, clearly this is wrong.

I would give a counter arguement - if your thought process at the time is 'do I need a signal' you cannot be giving as much brain power to the thought process ' is it safe to emerge'. (My computer background coming out  :shock: )

The fact that an IAM observer has given me bad advice in the car, and then a second observer had to go up the chain of command to ask the question, and then the advice given was still not given in a black or white way; all points to a bit of a muddle over something that should be simple because the HC clearly says you should signal.

My (hopefully) last word is that I will continue to signal at roundabouts and argue my case if told it is wrong by an observer.


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#20 07-12-04 08:53:20

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

have to agree with Cawood on this.
so what would happen if i was a 'non advanced (huh)' driver coming up to a give way wanting to turn right. i had a view thru some bushes/trees of the traffic approaching from the right and there was an IAM driver who was going to turn left into my road but they couldnt see me thru the bushes , i could see them as i knew the road/area well enought to know i could see thru there but they didnt. So their not signalling as 'no one' to benefit from it. As a result i have to slow to a stop as its not until i am at the give wway line that i come into their view and the signal goes on. But hey ive had to stop now instead of being able to proceed making better progress.
And im sorry but thats called 'advance driving'   HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Im so good its unbelievable

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#21 07-12-04 16:37:28

cawood
Guest

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

TDC wrote:

so what would happen if i was a 'non advanced (huh)' driver coming up to a give way wanting to turn right. i had a view thru some bushes/trees of the traffic approaching from the right and there was an IAM driver who was going to turn left into my road but they couldnt see me thru the bushes , i could see them as i knew the road/area well enought to know i could see thru there but they didnt. So their not signalling as 'no one' to benefit from it. As a result i have to slow to a stop as its not until i am at the give wway line that i come into their view and the signal goes on. But hey ive had to stop now instead of being able to proceed making better progress.

And that's exactly what happened on one of the instances I mentioned.

cawood.


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#22 07-12-04 17:52:23

crr003
Guest

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Would you trust the signal and pull out in front of the car?  Maybe it's been left on from a previous turn or overtake?

This is part of the benefit of the IPSGA system - when I see you approach the junction I can then put on the indicator - you then are pretty sure I'm going to go in that direction.  (And if it's very late because the junction is very closed, the signal is pretty meaningless anyway, because it is not giving any useful information).

Given the amount of drivers that don't signal anything on roundabouts, I don't think the DSA system teaches how to signal too well either!

Roger
IAM/RoADA/ADI hopeful

TDC wrote:

have to agree with Cawood on this.
so what would happen if i was a 'non advanced (huh)' driver coming up to a give way wanting to turn right. i had a view thru some bushes/trees of the traffic approaching from the right and there was an IAM driver who was going to turn left into my road but they couldnt see me thru the bushes , i could see them as i knew the road/area well enought to know i could see thru there but they didnt. So their not signalling as 'no one' to benefit from it. As a result i have to slow to a stop as its not until i am at the give wway line that i come into their view and the signal goes on. But hey ive had to stop now instead of being able to proceed making better progress.
And im sorry but thats called 'advance driving'   HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

#23 07-12-04 18:34:17

Silvercar
Verified Member
Registered: 19-08-04
Posts: 327

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Punters not signalling, to lazy or don't know how to, has nothing to do with what the correct  procedure should be. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The highway code has got to be the basis or you have people making up thier own rules to suit thus leading to confusion.

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#24 07-12-04 22:06:25

Graham
Guest

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

TDC.  What on earth are you on about?  Are you seriously telling us that you would have emerged from that junction, just because the other car was signalling left?  Would you not have waited until the other car had started it's turn, in order to be sure the signal was not an old one?  It wouldn't matter one jot to me what signal was being shown, I wouldn't have moved an inch until I was sure the other car was actually turning left. The other car does not need to signal as no other road users were visible to him, even though you could see him. The System described in Roadcraft is flexible enough to allow a signal to be given at any time it's needed, a point made by Stephen.  How many people here have actually read Roadcraft, never mind put it into practice? Roadcraft IS the highest skills resource available for driving technique. There is no doubt about it. And it's not about pusuit driving, as has been suggested.  It even says so on page Xii.  (Sorry, got carried away there!)  The DSA and the HC give very good advice for all road usres, not just learners. But you have to accept that there is a higher level of skill to develop. We never stop learning. Roadcraft provides the skills needed to get there. Any organisation or individual that doesn't accept that there a different ways of getting there are not facing facts. The word ostrich comes to mind. There ARE different systems, none really superior to the other, but Roadcraft is almost impossible to fault. Some people here are polarising the issue, when there's clearly no need. Lighten up guys, there's more than one way to skin a cat! As to the original thread, Stephen answered it in one. If there's no need, there's no signal. Come to think of it, if he's already answered the question, why am I bothering to type this out. Oh well, that's what message boards are for.................

#25 07-12-04 22:45:14

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Re: IAM and signalling at roundabouts

Hi,

Roadcraft dictates a high degree of flexibility, but it also requires the driver to form 'driving plans'

A driving plan is based on three things : what can be seen, what cannot be seen and what might reasonably be expected to happen.

In this case is it unreasonable to expect an unseen vehicle to suddenly appear at the closed junction as described? No, it's not, so a signal even before the vehicle appears has to be considered. I have to agree with cawood on this one. In these circumstances, how could the signal ever be construed as misleading? even if another car doesn't appear. By the time the driver has hurriedly put on the signal and the inevitable mechanical delay in the indicator bulb actually illuminating the vehicle will have covered some distance. Not very good, I dont think!!

I agree that where it can clearly be seen that a signal is not required as the views are all open, don't bother to signal to fesh air. But if there are unseen areas that can hide vehicles or other dangers....well, you take your chances, but I would signal.

Incidentally, this situation arose some time ago on an ADI training session I was running. We had quite a detailed discussion about it. Those of you who have read my postings will realise that I am a big fan of the IAM, Rospa and Roadcraft, but this is one area where I think that the DSA have it right. Although I nabsolutely hate having to admit it!!!!

Dave H


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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