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#1 09-08-06 08:53:35

Primo
Member
From: South Hants
Registered: 10-12-05
Posts: 62

Pedestrian crossings

Hi all, am preparing a briefing for the ped crossings/signals PST. Highway Code says you must not overtake the moving vehicle nearest the crossing, or the nearest vehicle which has stopped to give way - does this include bicycles?? I should probably know this by now but hey... neutral

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09-08-06 08:53:35

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Re: Pedestrian crossings



#2 09-08-06 09:23:26

Evan
Guest

Re: Pedestrian crossings

Yes it does include bicycles as well. Ev


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#3 09-08-06 09:29:04

Ghost
Guest

Re: Pedestrian crossings

Yes it does include bicycles as well. Ev

Although as we know cyclists should be............ you know the rest  lol lol lol lol lol

#4 09-08-06 09:31:28

dragonfly
Guest

Re: Pedestrian crossings

oh ! - now on my briefing with my adi the other day, i stated it was ok to overtake cyclist, as he wasnt a motor vehicle - and he said that was ok??????????  looked in highway code and it does state "moving vehicle" - anyone else got an opinion?

may live to regret saying this  big_smile

#5 09-08-06 09:53:48

Evan
Guest

Re: Pedestrian crossings

My own understanding of it is that you don't overtake cyclists once in the zig zag lines. I have always taught it this way.  Probably both are ok, just different interpretations, as long as all the rules are followed re: ped crossings, I guess it should be ok. Really a case of what is safe to do at a given time. If you consider how often you sit a set of lights and see cyclists actually go through them, as road users they can be a little unpredictable, so I do tend to err on the side of caution when teaching overtaking procedures around them. Ev


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#6 09-08-06 10:01:28

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Pedestrian crossings

I thought pretty much as you did Evan but since speaking with some colleagues i am of a different view now. A bicycle is not a motor vehicle so does not come into the equation when considering the rules with pedestrian crossings. One student on his part 3 instructed the SE to overtake a cyclist, which was the nearest to the crossing within the zig zag lines and passed to tell the tale. Another student, when asked if it was ok by the SE said that he should overtake the cyclist if the situation arose and was not chastised for the comment.

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#7 09-08-06 10:03:19

Ghost
Guest

Re: Pedestrian crossings

I agree with Ev.

Look at the situation and deal with it accordingly. If the crossing is clear and it is safe to overtake without inconveniencing any other vehicle then do so. Is there anyone behind you that you would be holding up? The cyclist could be going at walking pace. Common sense (in my opinion) most prevail. Treat every circumstance on its own merit.

Right I need a lie down as I used a few grown up words there.


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#8 09-08-06 11:48:13

Airmiles
Guest

Re: Pedestrian crossings

.
Of course cyclists may be overtaken in the circumstances described, if safe.

The law excludes cyclists in the definition of 'moving vehicles'

#9 09-08-06 12:14:56

Primo
Member
From: South Hants
Registered: 10-12-05
Posts: 62

Re: Pedestrian crossings

Thanks people, I'll use the 'err on side of caution, use common sense' approach, will see if my trainer agrees.  smile

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#10 09-08-06 13:17:44

pm
Verified Member
From: staffs
Registered: 23-09-05
Posts: 145

Re: Pedestrian crossings

[size=10pt]i think [/size] the overtaking cyclists at peds is down to zone of vision
visability is reduced very little by a cyclist cars are a different matter


looking for buddy in tamworth..delayed success.. strike 1

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#11 09-08-06 13:48:10

markA.d.I
Guest

Re: Pedestrian crossings

I always go down the lines of "you may overtake any non-motorised vehicles" if it is safe and necessary to do so, and visibility is very very good...... then explain about leading vehicles .... why its unsafe etc

#12 09-08-06 14:58:08

garethh
Verified Member
Registered: 16-02-06
Posts: 74

Re: Pedestrian crossings

That's an interesting one..........
I was in this exact situation yesterday on my part 3!!!
On phase 2 the SE asked about overtaking, so I told him what I needed to...
Then came the bit I dreaded, the bicycle part. He said "What does the highway code say about it",
Thinking on my feet, under pressure, I blurted out "Well I wouldn't overtake a bike. Imagine if someone came up and crossed you'd be stuck across the middle of the road!!"
And then spent an agonising amount of time pondering my answer...
And I passed 4 and 6. Whahey! He was happy with my answer because I gave a valid reason to back it up. Phew!
I know looking back it wasn't technically correct; if you were on a dual carriageway 40 zone (which we came across on the test) and the cyclist was going slowly, you would pass if it's safe to, but it shows the value of backing up what you say with a good reason..
Cheers
Gareth

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#13 02-08-09 21:13:21

Vhasler
Member
Registered: 23-06-09
Posts: 27

Re: Pedestrian crossings

Hi as far as I'm aware it says you cant overtake the motor vehicle nearest the crossing so u can overtake cyclists as you can see past a cyclist


5/7/08 passed adi part 1 - 100/60 (1st attempt)
3/11/08 passed adi part 2 - 2 minors (1st attempt)
15/10/09 passed adi part 3 - 4/4 (first attempt)

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#14 05-08-09 00:18:25

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Pedestrian crossings

wow, this is an old thread re-awakened.

Just to clarify, the legislation does not say "motor vehicle".

Think about it........Would it be ok to overtake a horse and carriage? rickshaw? any other non motorised vehicle that is large enough to obstruct or reduce the visibility near crossings?

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#15 05-08-09 02:21:45

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Pedestrian crossings

are you sure about that kevin??

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1997/240001-a.htm#24

Prohibition against vehicles overtaking at crossings
     24.  - (1) Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called "the approaching vehicle") or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it -



(a) to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or

(b) to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26.


    (2) In paragraph (1) -



(a) the reference to a motor vehicle in sub-paragraph (a) is, in a case where more than one motor vehicle is proceeding in the same direction as the approaching vehicle in a controlled area, a reference to the motor vehicle nearest to the crossing; and

(b) the reference to a stationary vehicle is, in a case where more than one vehicle is stationary in a controlled area for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26, a reference to the stationary vehicle nearest the crossing.

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#16 05-08-09 13:33:10

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Pedestrian crossings

I am under the impression that the amended SI  (either 06 or 08) has the same wording as the NI version of ZPPPCR.

"Motorised" + "motor vehicle" are ommitted in favour of "Vehicle"

—(1) While any vehicle (in this regulation called "the approaching vehicle") or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the approaching vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it—



(a) to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or

(b) to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with regulation 19, 21 or 22.

I think I've got a soft copy on the laptop at home, so I'll dig it out at the weekend to check it's wording.

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#17 05-08-09 16:11:42

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Pedestrian crossings

this one?? Though its for NI.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/sr/sr2006/nisr_20060164_en.pdf

Couldnt find any mainland ones and the 1997 one comes out top each time when searching.

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#18 05-08-09 17:16:25

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Pedestrian crossings

this one?? Though its for NI.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/sr/sr2006/nisr_20060164_en.pdf

Couldnt find any mainland ones and the 1997 one comes out top each time when searching.

The same when I searched this morning.

I'd like to take a look at what versions i have on my other laptop at the weekend for clarification, but the dates 2006 or 2008 rings a bell with me (It may be from a question and response in The House, where a member was asking for clarification from the minister).

Your quoted section has raised an issue though, as it appears to suggest "motor vehicle" is still the relevent phrase as was suggested by Vhasler.

I'll post back after checking what i have on the other laptop.

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#19 05-08-09 23:59:04

Vhasler
Member
Registered: 23-06-09
Posts: 27

Re: Pedestrian crossings

Thanks for your responses I would love to know the real answer I have my part 3 in a couple of weeks and hate it when there's gaps in my knowledge. Thanks again. Viv


5/7/08 passed adi part 1 - 100/60 (1st attempt)
3/11/08 passed adi part 2 - 2 minors (1st attempt)
15/10/09 passed adi part 3 - 4/4 (first attempt)

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#20 06-08-09 09:45:32

KevB
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From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: Pedestrian crossings

Hi Viv,

Dont be too concerned about it.

irrespective of the definitions surrounding vehicle or motor vehicle, the important issue is it doesnt appy to a cycle without a side car.
Provided you take effective observations, you may pass a cyclist within the controlled area of a crossing, even if it is the "lead vehicle".

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#21 09-08-09 22:11:34

KevB
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From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: Pedestrian crossings

I beleive I've found the reference in legislation that leads me to believe it is not just motor vehicles. In TSR(GD), the zigzag regulation is applied to "vehicles" and not "motor vehicles".

the reference is found in TSR(GD)2002.

Road marking shown in diagram 1001.3: zig-zag lines - no stopping
     27.  - (1) In this regulation and regulation 28 -



"controlled area" means a length of carriageway -

(a) which is adjacent to a signal-controlled crossing facility and has a zig-zag line marked along each of its edges (with or without zig-zag lines also marked down its centre); and

(b) in or near which no other signs or markings have been placed except ones comprised in the combination of signs and markings indicating the presence of the facility or shown in diagram 610, 611, 612, 613, 616, 810, 1029 or 1062;

"local service" does not include an excursion or tour as defined by section 137(1) of the Transport Act 1985; and

"vehicle" does not include a pedal bicycle not having a sidecar attached to it, whether or not additional means of propulsion by mechanical power are attached to the bicycle.

from:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm

I was correct in that a question was raised in the House for clarification as to the difference in meanings prescibed in the 2 pieces of legislation.

The response was that the later legislation (ZPPCR) supported the meanings as defined in TSR(GD), for motor vehicles but TSR(GD) went further and describes all but cycles as being a lead vehicle for the purposes of complying with the no overtaking lead vehicles.
The minister accepted that ZPPCR's definition was less than satisfactory but that there was no plans to alter the legislation until such times as other amendements may be necassary. The NI version was a later version and so does contain the same definitions as in TSR(GD).

Or put another way, he accepted they cocked up, but seeing as ZPPCR does NOT replace, or alter the meanings in TSR(GD) then the definition in TSR(GD) would still apply.

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#22 09-08-09 22:26:43

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Pedestrian crossings

Kevin I think the other refernce is somewhat clearer and far more specific.... The same document still includes:

28.  - (1) Without prejudice to regulation 27, a zig-zag line shall convey the requirement that, whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called "the approaching vehicle") or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the signal-controlled crossing facility to which the controlled area relates, the driver of the vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it -



(a) to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or

(b) to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with the indication given by a traffic light signal for controlling vehicular traffic.

I think that section actually answers the original question. Basically no overtaking on zig-zags refers to motorised vehicles. It actually says that without having to read into things.

That refernce you gave refers to stopping, doesn't it??

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#23 10-08-09 12:55:22

KevB
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From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: Pedestrian crossings

I accept that reg 28 specifies motorised vehicle, but reg 27 states a definition of vehicle and says  "in this regulation and regulation 28"

Regulation 28 states "without prejudice to regulation 27"

I think this is where the confusion lies (and perhaps why clarification was requested in the House).

We have a definition of "vehicle" but then theregulation refers to "motorised vehicle" and not vehicle.

Why would there be a definition of vehicle contained within the regulation, if it is not to be used in relation to the regulation itself?

The NI version is much clearer, and hopefully, someone will decide that ZPPCR needs tweaking and so the term "motorised vehicle" will be replaced with "vehicle" in an amending SI of ZPPCR which will then over rule current versions of ZPPPCR and TSR(GD) and may be much clearer.


It could be misleading to consider that "vehicle" and "motorised vehicle" has 2 meanings for the purposes of these 2 regulations.

consider an elephant pulling a circus trailer.

If it stops at the crossing, u cannot pass it(regulation 27). but if it is walking you can.(reg 28, if we consider "motorised vehicle" is something other than the definition as given in regulation 27).

Is that what we are to think the regulation is intended to convey and mean? The Secretary doesn't think so, so I'm guessing it would take a high court to decide if there is a difference between "vehicle" and "motorised vehicle" if a prosecution were to proceed that far.

For now, I'm convinced "motorised vehicle" should have the same meaning as "vehicle" as no definition of "motorised vehicle" is contained in ZPPPCR or TSR(GD).

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#24 10-08-09 13:58:16

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Pedestrian crossings

Kevin I think it is talking about leaving bikes parked on the crossing in 27 but the 28 reg is specifically about overtaking.

The without prejudice part is referring back to 27 FROM 28, but not the other way round.. in other words, 28 is saying that what it contains does not counteract anything said in 27 (which is about stopping)..... probably because bikes are mnetioned in 27.

IMO the NI version is not clearer at all because it doesnt say whetehr it is referring to motor vehicles or not.. Just because the word 'motor' isnt used doesn't mean it is intended to mean NOT motor vehicles.. I suspect the NI one is deliberately vague rather than deliberately specific like the mainland one.. Imagine what could happen if you overtook an extremely slow cyclist or some one dawdling on the crossing........ in NI some one could decide you'd broken the law.. Not so on the mainland.

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#25 10-08-09 15:58:11

Doc
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Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
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Re: Pedestrian crossings

If any vehicle (mechanical or non mechanical) blocks your view of the crossing area then don't overtake it, that would be unsafe and potentially dangerous. The bicycle would also come into this category if it were a fully loaded tandem bike, as that would obstruct your view as much as most small cars do.

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