Position for Corners.

[adiNigel]

Hi Nigel,

I appreciate what you are saying but could you expand on what the actual 'SYSTEM' is that you use for the different areas you teach? What levels of students do you currently teach? What happened with the Pt2 & Pt3 work?

Learners System =

Fleet System =

Advanced System =

Ok, by system are you meaning MSPSL and IPSGA?

DSA prefer MSPSL and Roadcraft preaches IPSGA.  I appreciate MSPSL is simply a slightly more rigid version of IPSGA.

As for part 2 & 3, I went through the AA 'Driving Instructor Training' programme but felt I didn't really have the inclination to keep with it once I left the AA.  Perhaps I will return to it at some point but I don't have the confidence to feel that I would be giving a high quality product so I wont do it for the moment.

Nigel

[jlo31]

Its a been a really interesting thread to read.

What is really impressive is all the experience you have all had. Great to be able to tap in to that experience on this forum.

Keep posting!

Cheers

Jlo31

[ADI Education]

Nigel,
I have repeated an earlier post as all the answers you require are contained within it.

 Before extending the vehicles position on a nearside bend there are a number factors that need careful consideration.

is it safe

is it legal

is it necessary to be there - what are you going to achieve.
There always has to be a reason for being in the position that you are in. Extending into a nearside bend can in certain circumstances increase the vision point and/or straighten out the corner allow the vehicle to take a quicker more stable line. If there is however no advantage to be gained then there is no point in being there.Positioning should be planned well in advance and a smooth line taken (late or sudden steering movements can destabilise the vehicle), if your view is diminishing on the approach then a position of safety has to be adopted (centre of your lane normally).
The positional advantages described above are not as relevant to 'general' driving as they are to driving whilst on response where exemption permit speeds a lot high than the posted limits.Great care should therefore be taken by those IAM an RoSPA drivers as the the consequences of getting it wrong could far out way any advantage gained and be potentially dangerous.


When not using the exemptions afforded to me by driving for the emergency services I very rarely will extend my position to the off side on a nearside corner as there is no reason for me to be there I AM NOT gaining any advantage.
when driving with exemptions because of the higher speeds permitted and the need to make progress then extending in certain circumstances allows higher speeds to be maintained and the driver execute overtakes that would otherwise not be on.
The problem with the general public doing this sort of thing is that  they have not been trained to do it safely, (you Nigel are NOT qualified to do that) also these sort of actions do not meet with other roads users expectations which could and does lead to conflict.
As for the me stating you MUST NOT teaching 'extending' I am not I am merely saying there is no requirement for you do so.

[daz6215]

where's my popcorn? 

[ADI Education]

Daz
Do you also have a comfortable seat?

[adiNigel]

Nigel,
I have repeated an earlier post as all the answers you require are contained within it.

 Before extending the vehicles position on a nearside bend there are a number factors that need careful consideration.

is it safe

is it legal

is it necessary to be there - what are you going to achieve.
There always has to be a reason for being in the position that you are in. Extending into a nearside bend can in certain circumstances increase the vision point and/or straighten out the corner allow the vehicle to take a quicker more stable line. If there is however no advantage to be gained then there is no point in being there.Positioning should be planned well in advance and a smooth line taken (late or sudden steering movements can destabilise the vehicle), if your view is diminishing on the approach then a position of safety has to be adopted (centre of your lane normally).
The positional advantages described above are not as relevant to 'general' driving as they are to driving whilst on response where exemption permit speeds a lot high than the posted limits.Great care should therefore be taken by those IAM an RoSPA drivers as the the consequences of getting it wrong could far out way any advantage gained and be potentially dangerous.

This is basic stuff.  Great care should be taken by ANY driver, not simply IAM or RoSPA drivers!  As I have agreed in other posts, safety must be paramount!

When not using the exemptions afforded to me by driving for the emergency services I very rarely will extend my position to the off side on a nearside corner as there is no reason for me to be there I AM NOT gaining any advantage.
when driving with exemptions because of the higher speeds permitted and the need to make progress then extending in certain circumstances allows higher speeds to be maintained and the driver execute overtakes that would otherwise not be on.

Why would anyone wish to compromise safety if there is no advantage to balance against it?  You talk as if I have said we should be out all the time, regardless.

Why do you feel the need to keep stating teh obvious and appear to be aiming it at me?  I haven't disagreed with the Is it safe etc.

The problem with the general public doing this sort of thing is that  they have not been trained to do it safely, (you Nigel are NOT qualified to do that)

That's an interesting statement.  Who the hell are you to tell me what I am and am not qualified to teach?   I really wonder just who you think you are sometimes!  So often you talk down to and patronise people on here.  It's almost as if you consider yourself so far above us!   I even bring it into learner lessons! 

also these sort of actions do not meet with other roads users expectations which could and does lead to conflict.

I'm prety sure I have agreed with you that it can and does lead to conflict and I have also stated that thet is why these subjects should be brought up in training sessions.  Clients need to be made aware of the risks involved.  They will see drivers performing these manoeuvres out on the road, they will pick up rumours of books such as Roadcraft and read them, they will hear about offsiding and the like on forums but they may not understand the risks involved.  By raising these subjects in discussions whilst training the risks can be talked about and highlighted which may result in one or two drivers giving the manoeuvres more thought before using or deciding against their use.

As for the me stating you MUST NOT teaching 'extending' I am not I am merely saying there is no requirement for you do so.

Then you are changing what you said.  Previously you stated...

Leave it to the emergency services ....

I have given, what I consider to be very valid, reasons for disagreeing with you on this.

Nigel

[on board training]

Hi Nigel,

I remember when I first started the driving school in (2002) and had chats with other instructors at test centres (although I did sit in on tests a high % of the time) and a good few of them couldn't understand when I said I used Roadcraft in the car along with the other DSA books and my colourfile presenter. Many suggested i shouldn't be teaching new novice drivers 'advanced driving' and I realised then that many, if not most instructors didn't really understand the use of a 'system' in their driving and teaching and even more were still thinking of 'the old school' advanced driving where 'offsiding' (still prefer opposing carriageway as it makes it very clear during commentary where the car is about to be!)and straighlining roundabouts were all too frequently taught. I have passionately believed since I started out on this route as an ADI that we should teach L drivers to drive to the 'System' and I would explain and expect all our instructors to explain what a 'system' is, why it is crucial to our driving and teaching by showing diagrams from Roadcraft and Driving the essential Skills (or the colourfile) and further, that there is no difference between them:-

Information      - Position - Speed - Gear                                    - Acceleration 

Mirrors - Signal - Position - Speed - Gear - (Look - Assess - Decide - Act)

In the above with L.A.D.A I would obviously say the Look from L.A.D.A starts the moment the driver has seen the actual or potential hazard and continues with as many assessments as required to reach the final decision to then act on it. The MS-PSG-LAD-A is the System I use for all levels of student.

When we look at both systems in pictures or diagrams there is NO difference - hence the reason I say you should be teaching/coaching the same system to all levels of drivers. I have lost count of the number of driving instructors, both trainee and qualified, who have approached us for top-up training or to work with us, who look at me with a blank expression on their face when I ask them to explain the system they use in teaching or driving.

Teaching consistently to this 'System' makes a huge difference in the quality of instructor and driver produced. As well as a very high number of single fault test passes we have had 7 zero fault passes and 3 of them were trained by the same ADI who like me has a good sound understanding and application of the system and the others were by ADIs who had not long achieved their own RoSPA Gold. When RoSPA held the young driver of the year competition, for the last two of them I had a young driver achieve the best overall drive of the day and also a driver achieve best teenage driver of the day.

The system, as far as I am concerned, should immediately roll off the tongue of those who are fully versed in it and more important fully understand it, they shouldn't need a couple of stabs in the dark and then say ...... 'ahhhh....by system , do you mean ........?'

As we have read in this topic a few times, IAM & RoSPA have made it clear for years now that these aspects of positioning should not be taught to members of the general public. As long as you use roadcraft the way it is intended for the general motoring public there is no conflict with DSA and Roadcraft.

If we take 'offsiding' and straightlining roundabouts out of the equation (as good and up to date Advanced Drivers shouldn't really be doing it) it really just leaves positioning to the right of your side of the road (offside) then if this is done when there is a benefit, you will realise there are very few opportunities where there is any real benefit and when it is done, you shouldn't do it when there is, or is a chance of, following, preceeding or opposing traffic. So as long as you are selective when you do it and are doing it for the right reasons then there is also no conflict with DSA. 

[adiNigel]

.....Many suggested i shouldn't be teaching new novice drivers 'advanced driving'

One reason why I prefer the term 'defensive driving', some drivers/trainers can be turned off immediately by the use of the term 'advanced driving'.

....When we look at both systems in pictures or diagrams there is NO difference

OK, you see NO difference, I see 'little' difference.  I still feel MSPSL is a slightly more rigid implementation of 'The System' which can be beneficial to those starting out on driving.  I prefer IPSGA for those with a little more experience, primarily because diagrams I see showing IPSGA emphasises the fact that the Information phase is a continuous phase that encompases all the other phases.  I have no problem at all with others teaching in theor own style, it was you that appeared to have a problem, though your phraseology now appears to show a little more flexibility and acceptance that others will do things differently and not necessarily wrongly!

....As we have read in this topic a few times, IAM & RoSPA have made it clear for years now that these aspects of positioning should not be taught to members of the general public.

I am not going to keep disputing this.  I have tried to show you that it isn't as clear as you like to make it out to be.  I'll follow the directions I have been guided towards and you follow the directions you have been directed towards.  I wont take your approach and tell others how they must/should do things though!

As long as you use roadcraft the way it is intended for the general motoring public there is no conflict with DSA and Roadcraft.

Page 131 of Driving - The Essential Skills says to keep to the middle of your lane on a left hand bend, Roadcraft suggests moving out towards the right.  Can't give a page number as I don't have Roadcraft to hand just now.

If we take 'offsiding' and straightlining roundabouts out of the equation (as good and up to date Advanced Drivers shouldn't really be doing it)

Then I must be a bad & out of date advanced driver then!   But then am I?  I passed the RoSPA test (Gold) when I was training to become an instructor (2002/2003).  Passed the Diploma in 2004 and the Diploma retest in Oct 2007.  So I can't really be that out of date and I must be a reasonable advanced driver to pass the retest.  Hmmm I wonder if you could possibly be wrong in your assumption that 'good and up to date advanced drivers shouldn't do it'?

it really just leaves positioning to the right of your side of the road (offside) then if this is done when there is a benefit, you will realise there are very few opportunities where there is any real benefit and when it is done, you shouldn't do it when there is, or is a chance of, following, preceeding or opposing traffic. So as long as you are selective when you do it and are doing it for the right reasons then there is also no conflict with DSA. 

I still wouldn't want to try it on a part 2 though.

Nigel

[on board training]

Hi Nigel,

I definately wouldn't take this or any of the posts on here personally it is merely reasoned debate and as you have said is, very healthy, not only for the forum, but also driver training generally.

Although I can understand why someone (esp those who have been trained to drive and instruct at police class1 standard) may suggest that you are not qualified to teach someone to go offsiding (opposing carriageway) merely for better views or stability on left-hand bends, it is clear as an instructor we shouldn't be teaching the general public to do that especially when the DSA, IAM & RoSPA also say it shouldn't be done for 'normal' advanced or defensive driving. (again this thing about offsiding should not be confused when looking for the overtake and it is prudent to go offside fully for better views to ensure it is safe for the overtake before fully committing to it)

Are you an active tutor for your local IAM & RoSPA Group and how many people have you trained who have then passed the RoSPA test at Silver and Gold level, the IAM test or the IAM Special Assessment?

Why you 'don't have the confidence to feel that you would be giving a high quality product' in relation to Pt2 training?

[daz6215]

Daz
Do you also have a comfortable seat?

yes m8 Im comfy!!!

[adiNigel]

Hi Nigel,

I definately wouldn't take this or any of the posts on here personally it is merely reasoned debate and as you have said is, very healthy, not only for the forum, but also driver training generally.

Although I can understand why someone (esp those who have been trained to drive and instruct at police class1 standard) may suggest that you are not qualified to teach someone to go offsiding (opposing carriageway) merely for better views or stability on left-hand bends, it is clear as an instructor we shouldn't be teaching the general public to do that especially when the DSA, IAM & RoSPA also say it shouldn't be done for 'normal' advanced or defensive driving. (again this thing about offsiding should not be confused when looking for the overtake and it is prudent to go offside fully for better views to ensure it is safe for the overtake before fully committing to it)

But it is still offsiding or opposing carriageway.

Are you an active tutor for your local IAM & RoSPA Group and how many people have you trained who have then passed the RoSPA test at Silver and Gold level, the IAM test or the IAM Special Assessment?

Semi-active.  Until recently I haven't been able to make the time to do much or attend meetings.  recently though, I have been observing an IAM associate.  I wont observe anyone for the IAM Special Assessment until I get round to taking teh test first.  Though I will probably drop the IAM at group level and concentrate on the local RoSPA group.

Why you 'don't have the confidence to feel that you would be giving a high quality product' in relation to Pt2 training?

I don't have the time to dedicate to it.

Nigel

[jlo31]

Daz
Do you also have a comfortable seat?

yes m8 Im comfy!!!

Me to. Could you pass the popcorn over here?