Position for Corners.

[ADI Education]

I have to agree with Paul when he says leave it to the emergency services.
 The Position of the vehicle prior to and into the bend must be carefully planned, any advantages gained by extending the view and/or straightening out the line into the bend should never compromise safety. The response driver is always looking to make safe progress (often  above the national or posted speed limit) and therefore any advantage that can be gained from extending their view or taking a straighter line will be used.
There is no real reason for or advantage gained by advanced drivers under normal circumstances to extend their position on nearside bends, and there could be a high price to pay if you get it wrong. 

[on board training]

Hi,

Found some of the comments in this post quite interesting and surprised at the attitude shown by one or two regarding defending their position when doing something which in many areas would be frowned upon. Not only that but warning posters of how they have come across when in reality there is nothing that wrong in what they have said or suggested. I know I haven't posted much here but think I am fairly tollerant of others view point and accept that due to regional and trainer variations there are different standards and not necessarily better standards especially if advanced driving is being used as an excuse to interpret rules or laws to suit someone's driving!

For me, it highlights again the many differences in trainers and standards that are being passed down in advanced driving circles and does no real good for the perceived image of us as trainers and let's remember there is no real difference in what you are teaching/coaching your learners, Pt2s, Fleet or Advanced drivers. They are being or should be taught the same system and it is merely the ability of student and instructor that will limit the progress made. (and time spent in some cases)

Based on my experiences in Scotland here are my thoughts for what they are worth as a new poster:
Positioning for bends for our normal driving (ie not emergency services) and outwith built up areas, should generally be central and not nearside or offside or opposing carriageway when there is following, preceeding or opposing traffic.

The initial poster made reference to right of centre line for left hand bend and barring normal driving (overtaking, turning right etc) this would not be condoned and would definately be frowned upon and is 'old school' advanced driving and by that I mean numerous years out of date.

Straight-lining roundabouts would definately be frowned upon when the roundabout is either lined or laned unless on a blue light or emergency run.

Interestingly, I remember a few years ago my brother-in-law when training to be a driving instructor wanted to rewrite the HWC as it wasn't clear enough for him, he didn't stay in the industry long once qualified either.

[adiNigel]

....Based on my experiences in Scotland here are my thoughts for what they are worth as a new poster:
Positioning for bends for our normal driving (ie not emergency services) and outwith built up areas, should generally be central and not nearside or offside or opposing carriageway when there is following, preceeding or opposing traffic.

I would certainly agree with staying fairly central on a left hand bend if there is other traffic around, but I see no problem with moving to the left on a right hand bend.  A movement that is even condoned by the DSA!

The initial poster made reference to right of centre line for left hand bend and barring normal driving (overtaking, turning right etc) this would not be condoned and would definately be frowned upon and is 'old school' advanced driving and by that I mean numerous years out of date.

I would disagree with you on that.  It isn't recommended in Roadcraft, granted but it is still suggested on training runs and examiners (RoSPA/IAM) are still happy to see it used on test.  Health and Safety has had an influence and there is now a caveat that no-one else should be around (folllowing or oncoming).

Straight-lining roundabouts would definately be frowned upon when the roundabout is either lined or laned unless on a blue light or emergency run.

By the DSA and those that follow the DSA style perhaps, but I see nothing wrong with straightening roundabouts, provided you are not compromising safety or misleading another road user.  The advantage in straightening a roundabout is increased stability and, on occasion, it helps show where you are intending to go.  Some roundabouts can cause drivers to take a position that misleads others into thinking you may take 1st exit![/quote]

[ADI Education]

Before extending the vehicles position on a nearside bend there are a number factors that need careful consideration.

• is it safe
  

is it legal

• is it necessary to be there - what are you going to achieve.
  There always has to be a reason for being in the position that you are in. Extending into a nearside bend can in certain circumstances increase the vision point and/or straighten out the corner allow the vehicle to take a quicker more stable line. If there is however no advantage to be gained then there is no point in being there.
  Positioning should be planned well in advance and a smooth line taken (late or sudden steering movements can destabilise the vehicle), if your view is diminishing on the approach then a position of safety has to be adopted (centre of your lane normally).
  The positional advantages described above are not as relevant to 'general' driving as they are to driving whilst on response where exemption permit speeds a lot high than the posted limits.
  Great care should therefore be taken by those IAM an RoSPA drivers as the the consequences of getting it wrong could far out way any advantage gained and be potentially dangerous.

[on board training]

I would disagree with you on that.  It isn't recommended in Roadcraft, granted but it is still suggested on training runs and examiners (RoSPA/IAM) are still happy to see it used on test.  Health and Safety has had an influence and there is now a caveat that no-one else should be around (folllowing or oncoming).

You can disagree if you like but it doesn't mean you are correct in what you are saying and you should look at what you're doing carefully. If it is still suggested on training runs then I would suggest said tutors/instructors look at what they are doing. If it is still looked for on tests by some IAM/RoSPA Examiners, then I suggest that said examiners get themselves up to date.

Went for a run recently with some Pistonhead forum members and some were happy to drive using whole road to make better progress - not correct to do it but if they wanted to do it to push their cars on, and at times, above the limits then that was up to them and they were aware of the consequences of any additional risks they were bringing into their drive. But .... and a big but, I wouldn't expect them to do it as a driving instructor and say it was ok to do it, never mind coach instruct other drivers to do it either through an advanced driving group or any other means!

Now, if the road was not marked with centre lines, thats a different thing and it is ok to use the full width of the road but again you need to be aware that you don't confuse following or preceeding traffic and don't put yourself at more risk at areas of restricted visibility. On narrower roads there are clear and distinct advantages of doing so when there is no room for two cars to pass.

Some are tip-toeing round about this but here goes without any malice intended:- While I appreciate the qualifications you have listed Nigel, I do think the hallmark of a better instructor is sometimes to take it on the chin and admit that heh . .  maybe sometimes I have been misguided and misjudged or even got it wrong or heh .. . things have changed a little and this bit is important so I will now change what I am doing or teaching!

Why would a professional instructor dig his or her heals in to drive (and maybe sometimes teaching) in contravention of a 'rule' in highway code (crossing centre lines when not overtaking or turning right) and also in contravention of 'guidelines' set out by IAM, RoSPA and other Fleet providers?

[ADI Education]

''Now, if the road was not marked with centre lines, thats a different thing and it is ok to use the full width of the road but again you need to be aware that you don't confuse following or preceeding traffic and don't put yourself at more risk at areas of restricted visibility. On narrower roads there are clear and distinct advantages of doing so when there is no room for two cars to pass''.

A little confused by this as broken white paint is not a solid obstacles, however I agree that IAM and RoSPA trainers should have firm guidelines on what is and is not acceptable when teaching a member of the public. They are essentially using tools in the tool box that are not designed or necessary for their use.
Leave it to the emergency services who receive specialist training on such driving techniques with the purpose of  enabling them to attend incidents as quickly and safely as possible.

[on board training]

''Now, if the road was not marked with centre lines, thats a different thing and it is ok to use the full width of the road but again you need to be aware that you don't confuse following or preceeding traffic and don't put yourself at more risk at areas of restricted visibility. On narrower roads there are clear and distinct advantages of doing so when there is no room for two cars to pass''.

Basically if on a single carriageway with centre lines - stick to your own side of the road unless overtaking, turning right etc (very little to be gained by going over line to extend view when not overtaking and is not good practice)

If on a narrower road which then doesn't have centre lines it is generally ok, in absence of other road users, to use full width of road.

[adiNigel]

You can disagree if you like

Well that's jolly nice of you!  Thank you.

but it doesn't mean you are correct in what you are saying

Absolutely.  It is an opinion and I haven't phrased it in such a way to say that you are wrong and I am right.  I have always been happy to change if someone can show me the error of my ways.  That's how my driving & coaching skills have developed over the years.

and you should look at what you're doing carefully. If it is still suggested on training runs then I would suggest said tutors/instructors look at what they are doing. If it is still looked for on tests by some IAM/RoSPA Examiners, then I suggest that said examiners get themselves up to date.

Oh!  Is there something out there that says examiners mustn't allow offsiding?  I'm not aware of anything.  As I mentioned earlier, offsiding isn't recommended in Roadcraft, but neither is it forbidden.  It is something I rarely do but that isn't to say I would never do it.

Went for a run recently with some Pistonhead forum members and some were happy to drive using whole road to make better progress - not correct to do it but if they wanted to do it to push their cars on, and at times, above the limits then that was up to them and they were aware of the consequences of any additional risks they were bringing into their drive. But .... and a big but, I wouldn't expect them to do it as a driving instructor and say it was ok to do it, never mind coach instruct other drivers to do it either through an advanced driving group or any other means!

Crossing the centre line when there isn't a solid white line is not wrong, breaking the speed limit is, however and I wouldn't condone it except under exceptional circumstances.

Now, if the road was not marked with centre lines, thats a different thing and it is ok to use the full width of the road but again you need to be aware that you don't confuse following or preceeding traffic and don't put yourself at more risk at areas of restricted visibility. On narrower roads there are clear and distinct advantages of doing so when there is no room for two cars to pass.

Do you really feel that you need to spell this out on this sort of forum?

Some are tip-toeing round about this but here goes without any malice intended:- While I appreciate the qualifications you have listed Nigel, I do think the hallmark of a better instructor is sometimes to take it on the chin and admit that heh . .  maybe sometimes I have been misguided and misjudged or even got it wrong or heh .. . things have changed a little and this bit is important so I will now change what I am doing or teaching!

Oh right!  So I'm wrong and you're right?  So that must mean that my RoSPA Diploma trainer must have been wrong, the chief examiner must be wrong, the local RoSPA & IAM examiners must also be wrong and all the local observers too.

Driving is such a large grey area that there are many ways of doing things, none of which are necessarily wrong.  I think you need to add some flexibility & adaptability to your approach.

Why would a professional instructor dig his or her heals in to drive (and maybe sometimes teaching) in contravention of a 'rule' in highway code (crossing centre lines when not overtaking or turning right) and also in contravention of 'guidelines' set out by IAM, RoSPA and other Fleet providers?

Dunno!  Why are you digging your heals in?

I am happy to leave others to develop their own style of driving.  I don't try telling people what they MUST or MUST not do.  I may suggest reasons why I would or wouldn't do something.  Flexibility & adaptability are key!

...A little confused by this as broken white paint is not a solid obstacles, however I agree that IAM and RoSPA trainers should have firm guidelines on what is and is not acceptable when teaching a member of the public. They are essentially using tools in the tool box that are not designed or necessary for their use.

Are we?   What an interesting accusation.

Leave it to the emergency services who receive specialist training on such driving techniques with the purpose of  enabling them to attend incidents as quickly and safely as possible.

and a condescending comment to finish off with!

Nigel

[on board training]

Hi,

I thought this is the very place it should be brought up ......  even although it is obvious we won't get consistency in training throughout large areas.

If the professional opinion from the top in IAM & RoSPA is that it shouldn't be done or condoned then yes I suggest the trainers and examiners take it up with IAM & RoSPA to sort out. This was made clear to all trainers and examiners several years ago via memos and minutes from meetings and it will always be a problem when individual trainers/examiners etc do their own thing because they think they know better!

But that is where you look a bit closer at individual personality traits and that becomes amusing sometimes when you can anticipate how someone is going to react and respond digging their heels in even further.

Condescending, no, I don't even think that is, I think it is merely stating a valid point as a suggestion or recommendation and based on how this thread has developed over a period of time I can see why it has been posted as a reply.

[on board training]

'Oh right!  So I'm wrong and you're right?  So that must mean that my RoSPA Diploma trainer must have been wrong, the chief examiner must be wrong, the local RoSPA & IAM examiners must also be wrong and all the local observers too.'

Just re-read that bit again and maybe it is a local problem that should be clarified via RoSPA & IAM HQ. If the local examiners and senior examiners are looking for or accepting that on test then it stands to reason why local observers would be doing it too...... and so it continues

[adiNigel]

'Oh right!  So I'm wrong and you're right?  So that must mean that my RoSPA Diploma trainer must have been wrong, the chief examiner must be wrong, the local RoSPA & IAM examiners must also be wrong and all the local observers too.'

Just re-read that bit again and maybe it is a local problem that should be clarified via RoSPA & IAM HQ. If the local examiners and senior examiners are looking for or accepting that on test then it stands to reason why local observers would be doing it too...... and so it continues

Didn't say the examiners were looking for offsiding just that they don't mark it down unless there is a safety issue.  What makes you think this is a local area problem?  I work in Swindon.  RoSPA HQ is in Birmingham.  I was trained on the Diploma by a trainer who is based in East Anglia and examined by the chief examiner who works out of Birmingham.  Hardly a local problem!

Why do you feel the need to be intransigent?  Why does only one system have to be used?  I would rather follow Roadcraft than the DSA for my own driving as I find it much more flexible.

Nigel

[ADI Education]

It would appear Nigel that everyone that disagrees with your point of view is either condescending or patronising. Not so.
You really ought to take more time to read each post carefully and look at the overall picture rather than taking individual words and phrases out of context.
Some very valid points have been made in other posts including those from on board training, it might be a good idea to listen to  advice and guidance offered by trainers that are experienced and knowledgable in this particular area of training.